Pueblo for the Car-Free? (Denver, Lakewood: fit in, rent, how much)

[ndk]

First, a shout-out to all helpful forum members here, particularly jazzlover and Josseppie. The threads have been incredibly useful and interesting, and I think I've collected enough to be ready to ask a few questions unique to my particular issues.

I'm a Colorado native of 27 years who grew up on the prairie west of Niwot, south of Longmont, and north of Boulder -- pretty much nowhere, at the time. I loved the agrarian parts of my youth: the local fairgrounds, running around in the fields near my house with my friends and a few BB guns, sneaking onto the canal roads and watching the bats, and the clear night sky. It was too isolated for my tastes, but I got hooked on our seasons, weather, mountains, and people. No tadpoles, but the occasional toad hibernating in the yard. Seeing my hometown on San Diego Magazine's Second Home advertisement flyers is pretty darn depressing.

I know you're supposed to leave home when you grow up. But having traveled for my job to 25 countries, even living in Tokyo for a little while, I still haven't found a single place on this green Earth better than Colorado. I don't think I'll ever be able to leave, though I am open to suggestions. I'm in Downtown Denver now, and while the excitement is fun, I'm really not cut out for the scene. I'm ready to start a homestead and a family.

Special constraints:

1) I've chosen to never drive a car. This is mostly because I share a lot of jazzlover's sentiments about the future of suburbia and the personal car. I'm fully able-bodied and love to bicycle, walk, and take any kind of public transit, particularly trains. I hope to see the Rocky Mountain Rail Authority spin up within my lifetime.
2) I have a secure job that I do remotely. It does require me to fly regularly on business (burning oil ) so access to an airport, particularly DIA, is a plus. No job is guaranteed, so reasonable employment options or a low CoL would be very nice, but this one's pretty solid.
3) I love to garden. It's not easy in Colorado, particularly at elevation, but it's rewarding. Xeriscape is my choice of landscaping.
4) I need easy access to some Colorado nature. Our state is blessed with a huge variety of landscapes, and from the Great Sand Dunes to the South Platte River to the Pawnee Grasslands to the Maroon Bells, I love all of it. It doesn't matter what kind, but I need to be able to get there easily on foot, bike, or transit.
5) I'd prefer not to be around a lot of trusties, keep-up-with-the-Jones socialites, or hippies. Some of everything is fine, but not an overwhelming supply of those. I have no strong political or religious views, and I love the variety of people in Colorado, que incluye, por supuesto, los latinos.

I've combed the nation -- and eventually, just the state -- looking for a good place to plant some roots. I've read enough here about Pueblo that I'm curious if it's really an option.

There are a lot of upsides, like the Arkansas river, long growing seasons, the state fair, excellent railroad connections, HARP, low cost of living, reasonably sized city, good transportation, and a compelling vision for the future. While other selling points would be welcome, I want to pose the bad aspects I can think of and give you guys a chance to support or refute me.

1) Relatively poor, higher than average crime, and few economic opportunities. Throughout the time I was growing up, Pueblo was considered a poor place. I understand that was changing (until global economic meltdown struck), but is it a permanent trend? In a variety of future worlds, will Pueblo do as well as it did in the state's early history? Even now, it feels a little run down downtown.
2) Little to no nature opportunities available nearby. I understand it's easy to get up to Royal Gorge and the Collegiates(I love Leadville!) but maybe not without a car. Besides the reservoir and state park, Pueblo itself seems to have few park, camping, or outdoors opportunities nearby or in city limits.
3) Sketchy transportation to Denver. TNM&O has frequent, regular buses to Denver at excellent prices, but Palmer Divide + Snowstorm + I-25 + scheduled airplane departure = ???
4) Hotter, drier weather than the Northern Front Range. I can see it in the City Data statistics, but how different do a full summer and winter really feel from the northern prairie? With the exception of a few blistering scorchers in July and August, Denver's weather is perfect for me.

I'm also weighing Estes Park, Castle Rock, Cortez, and Glenwood Springs. I know there's an incredible amount of variety in those four, but if there are any further areas you'd like to recommend, I love free advice.

Thanks so much for reading this and helping Southern Colorado to prosper!
Nate.

[livecontent]

I am a strong advocate of driving less and if you can, becoming car free. I do have a car but I am now under 2500 miles a year in driving. I hope to soon go car free.

From your post, I would suggest you stay in the Denver Metro area. It has the best public transit in the state. I am an ex resident of NYC and I think Denver has done a great job of public transit. I have looked at the Pueblo transit system and it only runs during the daytime and not on Sunday.

Though, I am starting to be really impressed by the potential of Pueblo and the Arkansas River valley. I could not see how you can live a car free lifestyle in many rural areas. Shopping is difficult and getting medical care can be problematic. Living in near the central business area of Pueblo could work and biking would be easy for services. I think it may hold true for many small communities, that the only way to live car free would be in town. Also, as you age, many people cannot drive and should not drive. So, it is good that there are senior vans to help them get around the towns.

When, I first came here in the 1970s. I lived in Niwot. My car was destroyed in a accident. Had to rely on the then limited L bus, along the diagonal, to Boulder and Longmont. In addition, I biked with my old 3 speed up along the highway. Today, the bus service is better. I use public transit often. I do not bike anymore as I am older and disabled. It is helpful that I qualify for the disabled Access-a-Ride and I am given a free pass for other parts of the RTD system. I no longer work so my schedule is mine so the relaxing pace of using public transit fits my lifestyle.

You can easily live many places in the Denver metro area that is covered by the RTD which would would make car free living easy. If you want real diversity and want to be close to nature, I would suggest the western suburbs of Denver. Specifically, I would look along the new rail corridors that are being built, the west corridor to Lakewood would be the first.

You will be normal everyday people, many Hispanics and not a bunch of trust funders, hippies or "keep up with the Jones". In addition, access to DIA will be easy from any parts of the metro area. You will have the extensive parks of the Denver Metro area. You can take your bike on all public transit and that will extend your car free lifestyle. The Denver Metro has outstanding bike paths and trails that go for miles and will take you throughout the city and the suburbs, to Chatfield, along the Platte, Cherry Creek, Clear Creek, Bear Creek, High Line Canal etc. I have biked on all these paths and I do miss it.

If near Denver is too much for you, you can live in Longmont and as far as Brighton and have access to RTD. Old town Louisville and Lafayette are also nice. You can live in Nederland and have access by bus to Boulder. Evergreen has bus service and Call n' Ride service. Of course, living in Boulder is a prime area for being car free but it has some attributes that you indicated that you do not want.

I live on the very southeast edge of Arvada, in the part that is in Adams County. A new rail station will be built within 1/3 mile of my home. I am also close to Ralston Creek trails, Clear Creek Trails, Jim Baker reservoir with trails and a proposed new regional park for Adams County on the edge of a wildlife preserve. These are all with 1 mile of my house. I am 1 and 1/2 miles from the Denver City Limits and there is Berkeley Lake and Rocky Mountain Lake. All this is in the newly discovered and desirous older neighborhoods of North Denver with all different people. Also, I am about 6 miles from Union Station. So, the western suburbs are older, have extensive parks and are well served by public transit and has a variety of people.

A car free lifestyle is not only about public transit. It is walking more, biking more and I think most importantly, trying to live in a place and have a workplace that a car is not necessary. Many areas of Denver and the suburbs have neighborhoods where you can walk to a grocery store and other shops. You can take a stroll in a park. You are near a bike trail and you can walk to a bus stop.

I do like the new Transit Oriented Developments (TODs) that are being built in Denver. As long, as they provide everyday basic shopping and not just overpriced "fluff" stores for the elite. I particularly like the first one in old town Englewood on the site of the former Cinderella City. It has basic grocery and stores and is near the old area of South Broadway. Good Bus Service and the commuter rail. In addition it is right down the road from Swedish Hospital which you will appreciate more when you become old.

Livecontent

[ndk]

livecontent, I really have to thank you for such an empathetic and thoughtful response. I can't believe these free forums are out here for everyone to share. It's an amazing resource.

I actually did live in Boulder for three years, as it was the city closest to where I grew up. I didn't fit in well at all there socially: it really helps to be rich, of certain political views, and/or interested in drugs. I'm not, so I got out of there pretty soon. It's certainly no more affordable today than back then, and the "Lexus Hippie" culture is an awful strange amalgamation. The scandals at Naropa are all too emblematic of what I saw there.

Longmont today is NOTHING like the Longmont I grew up with. I might have to learn to appreciate the new city. I can probably still get into the middle of nowhere going out east from there. I love corn fields.

I think Louisville is worth a second look. I've gone through the old downtown often, and was quite surprised to find so much there. It's a bit suburbian, but nothing too flagrant.

I was looking at the very center of downtown Pueblo, which is very affordable and has a lot of really neat old homes. It's a stretch, but hearing you say it might be possible makes it seem worthwhile to me to at least go down there and check a bit of the redevelopment out. Is there a good way out of there up the Arkansas River Valley? Going down the river is always one way to get in the middle of nowhere!

I've definitely enjoyed the bike paths and amenities of Denver. South Platte Park (right on the lightrail, or bikeable from downtown!) is my favorite, but there's no shortage of neat opportunities. I also agree that RTD is spectacular and I'm thrilled they've been there for you.

There are a few ranches in Lakewood that don't have any particular charm to them, but they're in my price range with about a quarter acre. It's not much land and they're not much to look at. I would kind of hope for a little more, but maybe that's too much to ask for in Colorado without a car. As an aside, I deliberately sat out the housing bubble, "wisely" investing my income instead, only to watch that blow up with the stock market. Oh, America...

Anyway, it seems like, for my needs and lifestyle, that buying in even Downtown Pueblo is essentially speculating on the area's future. With the density there, it's a viable choice, but I didn't know their public transit was so severely limited, which would confine me a bit. At present, there might not be much in the way of nature, parks, or inter-city transit to the car-free individual, even if it's livable. The future might be bright, but it's not assured as of today.

Based on livecontent's input alone, and what's available in the Metro Area in my price range, it seems like I'd do well to consider some of the medium-sized cities out east on the Great Plains a little ways. It'd be emotionally hard to leave friends, family, and home behind, but it seems like the most rational thing to do to really build a modest homestead without relying on a car. Plus, the gardening is easier, particularly if you can stand the humidity and train cats to eat hornworms and potato beetles.

p.s. It's so nice to hear you point out how much of the TOD is built up for the elite to feel good about themselves. I think the hypocrisy is what bothers me most about the Lexus Hippie crowd, and that goes for a lot of Earth-friendly types. I include myself to an extent in that hypocrisy pile, of which I'm well aware and working hard on.

[McGowdog]

Hey Nate.

I sorta got bad news for you. I'm not Jazzlover, nor am I Josseppie. I'm somewhere outside of those two, but closer to Jazz I guess.

You said

excellent railroad connections

as being an upside? Maybe, if you're a lump of coal. Srsly. We don't have passenger trains here.

What you call downsides is what I call upsides. I've lived 5.5 miles up Upper Bear Creek road and in Conifer. I love snow too. The later of the two gave me my fill. But I usually am not so versatile in my ability to obtain a J.O.B. and I do not want to take another J.O.B. where I have to be near an airport. Ef that. I'd rather drive 90 miles a day than have to fly out of DIA or CoSprings. I'm burnt on it.

You used to live in Niwot. I don't care what you say, you were very very close to civilization. Once you head south of about Fountain, you have left civilization and entered the Reservation. It is slow down here.

And until I see otherwise, it will stay that way.

[Josseppie]

To be honost, I don't see how anyone could live in Pueblo without a car but I know its done.

[Josseppie]

NDK said:

"I was looking at the very center of downtown Pueblo, which is very affordable and has a lot of really neat old homes. It's a stretch, but hearing you say it might be possible makes it seem worthwhile to me to at least go down there and check a bit of the redevelopment out. Is there a good way out of there up the Arkansas River Valley? Going down the river is always one way to get in the middle of nowhere!"

You need to visit as I think living by the Riverwalk would be awsome but I still think you would need a car in Pueblo then again I would have a car in Denver.

[Idunn]

I find this thread bemusing and interesting. It is of course possible to live in Colorado without a vehicle, but for most people the choice would be verging on masochistic. In Boulder, Denver, etc., yes one could arrange their schedule and life so as to use public transportation, walk, bike and exist perfectly well. But in such circumstance one had best like their own little world best of all.

Even within such towns one will be constrained, because aside from most of this state being large and rural, even the towns are built as American car culture. Some few places will offer perfectly nice houses in close proximity to good shops and restaurants. Anything beyond that is designed some length away by vehicle. So there will be times when one would or must be across town, with a private vehicle best, and anything else a less than perfect solution. Boulder most certainly falls into this category. This does not even account for the reality of commuting to jobs which most contend with. Then also, and a big one, is that one then places themselves at a severe disadvantage if wishing to enjoy all the many sights and attractions of this state. Even short trips outside of town could be problematic, not to mention if off to Mesa Verde NP or Hovenweep NM. Presumably one could rent a car then, or perhaps arrange a ride, but it remains that day in and out this is a large state still designed best for the private vehicle.

Estes Park is a case in point. As beautiful as it is, not the place I would recommend to anyone wishing to live sans vehicle. It could be done if living directly in the CBD, and anywhere else much more problematic.

Couple examples. Although there are alternatives, Safeway is the only large grocer in town. It resides in Stanley Village, near the main four-way stoplight in town on Elkhorn Avenue, which most tourists will pass through on their way into town, either via US34 or US36. There are no residences directly adjacent, although with some near the Stanley Hotel close to enough to feasibly walk. One might from some areas of the CBD as well, if few residences there. Most of them are farther removed, and practically everyone drives to that grocer and uses its parking lot. So, possible without a vehicle? Yes, if not desirable, particularly in winter. Those in the remoter areas of that town would usually not consider anything but driving, nor the type of town where most people are attuned to anything else.

In recreation Estes Park has so many options, many of them directly in town. Some of its nicer features are a number of lovely town parks, also a beautiful riverwalk along the Fall River. Any number of various activities one might walk to in town as well. Although some of them at enough distance as to make anything but a vehicle somewhat problematic. If a relatively small town, Estes Park is still spread out.

But the feature that makes it most special of all is its direct proximity to Rocky Mountain National Park. All sorts of great outdoor options there. However there are very few places in Estes Park, and nothing from the CBD, which offer direct easy access into the Park if walking. From virtually anywhere in town by far the simplest and most practical approach is to drive the very short distance into the Park and your trailhead, etc. of choice. Otherwise, a very long walk across town and then some before ever in the Park proper. I say this from direct experience, and at one time living in a location with great access, and even then, even if quickly within the Park, still a long walk to get to areas others might choose and drive to far more quickly. If the trailheads from Bear Lake, good luck, as that would be an excursion. The exception to this are the many shuttle buses the town and Park arrange for in summer, which many tourists take advantage of, and can work fairly well. But this service is scaled well back or nonexistent in winter. Even in summer, one had best live near one of the pickup points, or an excursion just to begin your excursion.

Not that I am advocating everyone rush out and buy an SUV. God knows there are plenty of them running around already. Although I would suggest that if having such a monster is on your bucket list that now, despite rising gas prices which will in overall trend only rise higher, would be a good time to realize such a dream. If the next several decades may not be kind to such things, they at least still exist, and in time something only the wealthy can afford.

Colorado is still best explored with a private vehicle. In most cases lived within with as well, city or no. That can and will change, whether we like it or not. But for those thinking of forsaking motor vehicles now my suggestion that you are most usually impractically ahead of your time. Then, too, in time wishing you had taken advantage of what we take for granted today, and may all miss tomorrow.

[livecontent]

Originally Posted by Idunn

I find this thread bemusing and interesting. It is of course possible to live in Colorado without a vehicle, but for most people the choice would be verging on masochistic. In Boulder, Denver, etc., yes one could arrange their schedule and life so as to use public transportation, walk, bike and exist perfectly well. But in such circumstance one had best like their own little world best of all...

I think you post is well thought out and makes some good point. This opening paragraph does put it all together because, yes, you can live without a car but your world does become smaller. Yet, that will be necessary as one ages and I hope many seniors for their own safety and others, stop driving.

When, I was a child, I did exist,happily, and was able to get around. I was in the Army, car free and there were no problems--especially commuting to the job--because I lived there everyday In college, I lived, for a time, on a campus without a car--it worked. Of course, all these situations had limits because of no car and where good public transit did not exist.

Now, I am a senior and I drive about 2500 miles a years. I am happy in my own little world--the smaller world that I can handle and I am still happy. However, I live in a well serviced area by bus/rail and it is easy to get around to most everything in metropolitan Denver, that I need and desire. So, my world in more expansive and interesting because of the good public transit in Denver. Of course, being retired, allows me more flexible schedule and more time to use public transit.

I have lived in NYC and in a large European City. I have noticed that the children, the disabled, the seniors and the car less had a wider world because of the excellent public transit. We need to strife in our country, so that people who are not old enough to drive; those who cannot drive because of age or disability; those who choose not to own a car and those who cannot afford an expensive car---can have a larger world to explore and have better options for living.

We certainly cannot provide complete coverage of the country with public transit but people need to have the choice of areas better served. Many will not need public transit, in their vibrant years, but the time will come when many more will see the need. It is bemusing to me to see people retire in small isolated towns, especially in the mountains, and discover when they get older that it is very difficult for them to drive to services; especially distant medical care.

These are reasons we need to fund and support public transit, even though one feels they will never need it for themselves.

Livecontent

[Josseppie]

Livecontent said this:

I have lived in NYC and in a large European City. I have noticed that the children, the disabled, the seniors and the car less had a wider world because of the excellent public transit. We need to strife in our country, so that people who are not old enough to drive; those who cannot drive because of age or disability; those who choose not to own a car and those who cannot afford an expensive car---can have a larger world to explore and have better options for living.

Larger cities no matter where they are will have better mass transit. I have been to NYC and many large cities in Europe and I agree with what you said. However even the smaller cities in Europe do not have subways or transit systems that compare to Barcelona, Paris or London. Is Pueblo mass transit system good for a city its size, I would say yes, is it enough so one could live with out a car, yes but I would not recommend it unless you had to but at least we have that option for people who have to use it.

[SheridanL]

Jazzlover loves his vehicles btw. I know you say you share his sentiments but, he drives all over the state ( nothing wrong with that, just saying!)