Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Sunspirit I see these posters have you on the run so to speak and you deserve it. I said to the Cal-Couple that if their heart is in Colorado and things are not working out in Cal - then make a go at it, otherwise they will always be wondering "What if?"
You distorted that in your reply saying "So, I can play your game, too ...
C'mon out folks ... there's tons of opportunities just waiting for you in Denver and there's plenty of affordable housing at your price point in the quality of neighborhoods you want to live in and there's plenty of jobs waiting for you. All you have to do is c'mon out, and it's here for you if you're willing to work at it for awhile. Don't pay any attention to the layoffs and the foreclosures and the cutting back of workforces and the hiring freezes and the significant decline of sales tax revenues in the area and the slowdown in new housing sales and the defaulting home builder construction loans ... it's all in the imagination of the gloomsayers .... why, you'll be just fine. You can have the lifestyle you want just for coming on out here. Just follow your dreams and you'll be OK."
Is that what I was saying?
Last edited by Mike from back east; 02-26-2010 at 02:39 PM..
Sunspirit I see these posters have you on the run so to speak and you deserve it. I said to the Cal-Couple that if their heart is in Colorado and things are not working out in Cal - then make a go at it, otherwise they will always be wondering "What if?"
You distorted that in your reply saying "So, I can play your game, too ...
C'mon out folks ... there's tons of opportunities just waiting for you in Denver and there's plenty of affordable housing at your price point in the quality of neighborhoods you want to live in and there's plenty of jobs waiting for you. All you have to do is c'mon out, and it's here for you if you're willing to work at it for awhile. Don't pay any attention to the layoffs and the foreclosures and the cutting back of workforces and the hiring freezes and the significant decline of sales tax revenues in the area and the slowdown in new housing sales and the defaulting home builder construction loans ... it's all in the imagination of the gloomsayers .... why, you'll be just fine. You can have the lifestyle you want just for coming on out here. Just follow your dreams and you'll be OK."
Is that what I was saying?
Certainly, it's what you were telling those people ... Ignore the current economics of moving to Denver at this time, because you CAN:
Follow your dreams ... move on out here. Somehow, you will find a way to make it work. Even if you don't have jobs or a place to live, your dreams will prevail to find a way to have the life that you want out here.
Not only that, but I did it many times in many places, and so can you.
That's precisely the message you posted ... Dreamin'. Drop what you're doing and move on out, it'll all be OK.
Unfortunately, this approach doesn't quite mesh with the measured approach of the OP ... who took the time to set some parameters and background for what they were seeking ... professional employment and expectations of a certain level of housing in Denver or Fort Collins. If their move was all about escaping CA at any cost ... and this was an idyllic move to an escape ... they'd already be loaded up in the U-Haul and following the dream .... It's an entirely different paradigm that presents here. They're expoloring the possibilites that Colorado would be an OK place to relocate from California, not driven by a desire to be in Colorado.
Now, if the OP had come on here and stated that they'd been to Colorado and really fell in love with the place and just felt that it was the right environment for them and were wondering how they could get employed and live in the situation that they were acclimated to ... there'd have been a whole different premise. But it was really predicated on "can we find professional jobs doing what we do now and a middle to upper class living standard at our price point in Denver or Fort Collins?"
FWIW, I'm not "on the run" from anybody here. Especially people who want to talk in terms of good vibes and dreams rather than hard facts that I can back up and have done so on the forum. Even more so when you get folks posting about comparisons between various locales and they then admit that they don't know anything about the place they're comparing to what they're advocating. That doesn't even address that they want to redefine the definitions of a key aspect of the comparisons ....
As this is an "open forum", we can all express our views responding to the OP. The OP is free to take this exchange any way they want. I merely offer my perspective as my own. YMMV. It's not like this is a fee paid service ....
Certainly, it's what you were telling those people ... Ignore the current economics of moving to Denver at this time, because you CAN:
Follow your dreams ... move on out here. Somehow, you will find a way to make it work. Even if you don't have jobs or a place to live, your dreams will prevail to find a way to have the life that you want out here.
Not only that, but I did it many times in many places, and so can you.
That's precisely the message you posted ... Dreamin'. Drop what you're doing and move on out, it'll all be OK.
Unfortunately, this approach doesn't quite mesh with the measured approach of the OP ... who took the time to set some parameters and background for what they were seeking ... professional employment and expectations of a certain level of housing in Denver or Fort Collins. If their move was all about escaping CA at any cost ... and this was an idyllic move to an escape ... they'd already be loaded up in the U-Haul and following the dream .... It's an entirely different paradigm that presents here. They're expoloring the possibilites that Colorado would be an OK place to relocate from California, not driven by a desire to be in Colorado.
Now, if the OP had come on here and stated that they'd been to Colorado and really fell in love with the place and just felt that it was the right environment for them and were wondering how they could get employed and live in the situation that they were acclimated to ... there'd have been a whole different premise. But it was really predicated on "can we find professional jobs doing what we do now and a middle to upper class living standard at our price point in Denver or Fort Collins?"
I get what you are saying and I think you are right on the mark.
I'd go further and say there are just different types of people. For some, lifestyle is important, for some adventure is important.
The lifestyle folks are looking for cost and income comparisons and to suit a certain style of living. Tangible items like houses, 9 to 5 W-2 employment, nice cars, parks, fair trade whole food markets, etc are important. The lifestyle folks aim to negate the What-Ifs in life as much as possible.
The adventure folks decide to do something and then set out to do it. What happens along the way is the adventure. Whether you earn $67000 in X town or $71000 in Y town or the schools in X town have better test scores than Y town isn't as important to them. The intangible things, as in experiences, are more important. The What-Ifs to adventure folks is part of the fun and the journey.
As you say if Colorado was the environment and dream to them or anyone else they'd up and move and make it happen for the good or bad that might result. For a lot of people though, Colorado is another grass is greener place where for them their lifestyle might be better as in earning an income that outweighs their living expenses.
With either lifestyle or adventure both have their ups and downs for living, just depends what people want in life.
Based on my contacts with some attorneys who are no longer practicing in Colorado because there recently wasn't enough business to keep the doors open ... or who have left some of the larger firms in recent cut-backs ...
I'd say that unless you have some personal contacts with a major law firm with a lot of action, the chances of coming to town and earning a living are pretty slim. I know a fair number of attorneys in Denver who are working mostly pro-bono these days because they just want to keep active/networking and the cases they're taking don't have enough client money to even pay a retainer.
A number of high profile attorneys in Denver, who are clients of mine, aren't working except a few days a month. I've dropped in on them when in town to see if they had time to visit and unlike the old days where I had to get into their schedules far in advance, I can get them out to lunch on 15 minutes notice that I'm available. I've had several protest that they were really busy, but invite me to c'mon up and visit for a "few minutes" ... and the next thing you know, we'd been visiting for a couple of hours over a pot of coffee or two. These are senior guys who are listed in the who's who in Denver legal circles, with some of them nationally recognized as the best in their specialties. And sometimes I call in and their assistants know to be straight with me ... they haven't "stepped down the hall" or "he's in conference right now" ... they'll be candid enough to let me know that my friend has been in the office that AM and has stepped out for the rest of the day; when I call subsequently them on their mobile or at home, they're not in the office because there's nothing that needs to be done that day and we can yet get together if I'm in the area.
A slight reality check here, too, on housing prices ... $300K is only a down-payment on a "middle to upper class" neighborhood in Denver. You'll need to be in the 7 figures and up range to cross the threshold of that class of housing in Denver's neighborhoods, and $300K won't buy middle class housing in Ft Collins, either.
Funny, I just took about 30 seconds to look on recolorado.com and there are plenty of homes available in Denver - specifically Cherry Creek, Wash Park, Hilltop (neighborhoods you mention in another post) at/around $300k. Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument.
Also, I was speaking with a friend this weekend who works in a major firm downtown and he informed me that they are currently looking for 4-5 attorneys right now. Sounds like there is work to be had.
OK, now you can go back to hi-jacking the rest of this thread...
Funny, I just took about 30 seconds to look on recolorado.com and there are plenty of homes available in Denver - specifically Cherry Creek, Wash Park, Hilltop (neighborhoods you mention in another post) at/around $300k. Don't let the facts get in the way of your argument.
Also, I was speaking with a friend this weekend who works in a major firm downtown and he informed me that they are currently looking for 4-5 attorneys right now. Sounds like there is work to be had.
OK, now you can go back to hi-jacking the rest of this thread...
Yes, indeed, there are homes for sale at this price point in those neighborhoods. I've even found some in my searches, too ... like 369 Elm Street, or at 14th at Elm ... and a host of others, too ... in blocks and areas where high six figure priced homes are prevalent.
But the mere fact that they're at such a low price point in otherwise "pricey" neighborhoods might just be a tip-off that there's issues with these places. And some of them have been on the market for awhile, which agains suggests that the marketplace has looked at them and determined that they're not worth the asked price.
In other words, they may not necessarily fall into the level of housing that the OP indicated they wanted ... "middle to upper class". Unless you've toured these houses or have personal knowledge of them you're just quoting price points without really knowing the merchandise. The $350,000 price point is more typical in this area of condo's and high rises, not single family housing.
As to lawyer "jobs available" ... again, you're being deceptive. I know enough about law practice to know that it's a field of specialties. Unless you KNOW that the jobs offered by your friend's major downtown firm are in the area of practice that the OP is in, those aren't really "jobs available" to him. Sure, an attorney can change their area of specialty, but most law firms don't want to be training grounds hiring an experienced lawyer at their customary salary ranges to have them as a newbie in another area when they can hire a newbie for newbie salary ranges ... or an actually experienced practicioner at commensurate compensation.
That's why a real estate lawyer doesn't do divorce matters or a corporate lawyer doesn't do criminal cases, and a civil rights lawyer doesn't do water law, etc. It's no different than an MD (or other advanced degree professional, even college professors in a given field) working outside their area of specialization and expertise.
A major law firm staffing up in today's economy no doubt has a specific area of expertise they're looking for and willing to compensate. Another factor you've missed is that of compensation levels offered by this friend's firm ... unless you know that the salaries are competitive and attractive to new hires, there's a question as to whether or not their job offers are legitimate or they're seeking desperate new hires who will work for less than they're worth in other markets or even in Denver.
Not all housing is equivalent in a given neighborhood, and not all jobs offered are seriously worthy of consideration.
It's especially interesting in light of other threads on this forum where folks post that they can't find "an upscale apartment" to rent in the core Denver area (which is what the OP wanted) for no more than their top price point of $1,750 per month. That's somewhat indicative of the housing values in the area ... rentals are competing against other housing price points, and there aren't any "upscale" rentals at $1,750. I can buy a lot of house with that as a PITI after a modest down payment ... but not, perhaps, in the core Denver neighborhoods.
As you've pointed out, don't let facts get in the way of your argument.
OK, now you can go back to hi-jacking the rest of this thread...
Just for reference, look under the Denver section thread for "moving without jobs" ...
lots of comment from folks who have tried to relocate to Denver, some here right now, some without jobs but their education is not enough for them to find work. Some have been trying for quite some time to find work in Denver.
In particular, look at post #6 from ColoradoGirl1, who asserts that she works at a Denver law firm that has had a hiring freeze for some time, and also reports that law firms are laying off in Denver (which is unheard of!).
It's a current thread and I don't have any reason to believe the posters are lying or misrepresenting the circumstances they are finding in Denver employment circles these days.
Or do you think that all those folks are simply lying about what their experience is in Denver just so nobody else wants to move here right now and compete with them?
Similarly, there's current threads there with posters asking about trying to find a decent upscale apartment in the Denver area and they can't with a budget of $1,800 per month. You wanna' tell us again that upscale housing is cheaply and readily available? Other folks aren't finding that to be the case, or they wouldn't be posting on C-D about needing help to satisfy their housing search in the area.
Similarly, there's current threads there with posters asking about trying to find a decent upscale apartment in the Denver area and they can't with a budget of $1,800 per month. You wanna' tell us again that upscale housing is cheaply and readily available? Other folks aren't finding that to be the case, or they wouldn't be posting on C-D about needing help to satisfy their housing search in the area.
Perhaps the C-D sample is preselected for people having trouble locating housing? After all, those who successfully find it probably aren't posting here asking for help, and who knows how many of them are out there. Do I recall that you own investment properties in K-C? If so, what's your current occupancy rate?
As a counter-point, I rented a brand-new, four-bedroom house for $1150 in Castle Rock from 2006-2008. My current neighbors are renting out their three-bedroom house on a greenbelt in a very nice Centennial neighborhood with lots of outdoor amenities and not far from light rail for about $1800.
Perhaps the C-D sample is preselected for people having trouble locating housing?
Perhaps so. But the issue has come up repeatedly, with folk relaying the difficulties they've encountered. I assume they are coming here seeking genuine advice. Given that there's a fair number of real estate agents lurking here on the board, I'm not seeing them coming forward with specific solutions ... as in, hey I know of a couple of places that will fit your requirements at your price point, DM me for the details or a solution on that order.
After all, those who successfully find it probably aren't posting here asking for help, and who knows how many of them are out there.
Again, an interesting perspective. While satisfied folk may not be as motivated to post their problems with housing and jobs ... there's also a lot of folk who post on C-D about their positive experiences and how happy they are to have moved to Denver (or comparable situations on many state threads). While we can't know how many of them are out there, it's a pretty even balance on the threads here.
Do I recall that you own investment properties in K-C? If so, what's your current occupancy rate?
Correct. Down to two now, with happy tenants who have been in them for at least 8 years. I'm fortunate to have their long term loyalty and they are fortunate to have a landlord who can make a reasonable ROI and cash flow at below market rates. Neither family has the desire to own their own place, but circumstances have kept their jobs in the area for a long time and they choose not to move on. For that matter, same thing in my Vail rentals ... I've got some tenants who have been in my places for over 15 years. They can't buy a place there for anywhere near the monthly lease payment I charge them, and they've been great tenants ... who have made their own property investments in other markets but still want to live where their jobs are.
As a counter-point, I rented a brand-new, four-bedroom house for $1150 in Castle Rock from 2006-2008. My current neighbors are renting out their three-bedroom house on a greenbelt in a very nice Centennial neighborhood with lots of outdoor amenities and not far from light rail for about $1800.
Bargains can be found in the current markets. All depends upon how the property owner can get adequate cash flow and a satisfactory ROI. I know that if I'd sold several of my properties a few years ago and put the money into an 8% annuity to start paying out when I'd turned 60, I'd have many times greater cash flow than I do now. With a mid 6 figure income, I could travel and stay anywhere I wanted to when I wanted to, and my hobby costs wouldn't be so significant as they are now.
But that's all about woulda' shoulda' coulda', isn't it? The fact is I didn't and I don't have an 8% return on the market value of the properties. But I did buy them right and it's a good return in light of my capital investment. More than enough cash flow to keep me in the style I'd like to live in, if not my first choice of airplane I'd like to have right now ... or the second one I want in the hangar. They're like motorcycles or collectable cars ... one is never enough.
Bargains can be found in the current markets. All depends upon how the property owner can get adequate cash flow and a satisfactory ROI. I know that if I'd sold several of my properties a few years ago and put the money into an 8% annuity to start paying out when I'd turned 60, I'd have many times greater cash flow than I do now. With a mid 6 figure income, I could travel and stay anywhere I wanted to when I wanted to, and my hobby costs wouldn't be so significant as they are now.
But that's all about woulda' shoulda' coulda', isn't it? The fact is I didn't and I don't have an 8% return on the market value of the properties. But I did buy them right and it's a good return in light of my capital investment. More than enough cash flow to keep me in the style I'd like to live in, if not my first choice of airplane I'd like to have right now ... or the second one I want in the hangar. They're like motorcycles or collectable cars ... one is never enough.
I get the feeling you're more interested in touting your economic prowess than helping the OP. I don't recall anybody asking about your annual income, your retirement plans, or your woulda, coulda, shouldas. It's not relevant to the discussion at hand, and, frankly, bringing it up makes you look like a raging narcissist.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 03-02-2010 at 06:17 PM..
Just for reference, look under the Denver section thread for "moving without jobs" ...
lots of comment from folks who have tried to relocate to Denver, some here right now, some without jobs but their education is not enough for them to find work. Some have been trying for quite some time to find work in Denver.
In particular, look at post #6 from ColoradoGirl1, who asserts that she works at a Denver law firm that has had a hiring freeze for some time, and also reports that law firms are laying off in Denver (which is unheard of!).
It's a current thread and I don't have any reason to believe the posters are lying or misrepresenting the circumstances they are finding in Denver employment circles these days.
Or do you think that all those folks are simply lying about what their experience is in Denver just so nobody else wants to move here right now and compete with them?
Similarly, there's current threads there with posters asking about trying to find a decent upscale apartment in the Denver area and they can't with a budget of $1,800 per month. You wanna' tell us again that upscale housing is cheaply and readily available? Other folks aren't finding that to be the case, or they wouldn't be posting on C-D about needing help to satisfy their housing search in the area.
Wait, so the OP asked for areas in Denver that were in his/her price range (~$300K) and about jobs for lawyers.
I gave examples of both but I'm being deceptive? Interesting.
I never said that all law firms are hiring or that these houses are going to make the perfect home. In actuality, the law firm where my friend works has attorneys working on the civil and business litigation - specific concentrations mentioned by the OP. I shed some light on the actual topic and didn't go off spewing gloom and doom.
My apologies for presenting positive information to someone looking to find a better life for himself/herself.
Now back to your regularly scheduled negativity.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
