05-31-2007, 02:53 PM
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[ Moderator Note: Water is a vibrant and contentious issue in the west, subject to a full body of case and contract law and is a topic frequently misunderstood by average citizens. Please make this thread your primary source for seeking background and answers on water issues, or to ask a question related to water. Putting the vast majority of our water matters in one thread makes finding that info extremely easy for all our readers. Thank you, and thank Jazzlover for sharing his wealth of info on this topic.
s/Mike from back east, Moderator ]
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Each year, an engaging seminar is held in Gunnison, Colorado: The Colorado Water Workshop. It is a forum where water issues facing the West, particularly the Colorado River Basin, are debated and discussed. For a number of years, many of the discussions there centered on how much "excess" water there might be in the Colorado River Basin and how it might be divided to accomodate the region's spiralling population growth. From the reports I have read from this year's workshop, those conversations have ceased.
In fact, what seemed to be the hot topic this year was the debate on just HOW short the water resources of the Colorado River Basin are, and how those shortages will be "shared" among the states reliant on that water. Worse yet, there seems to be a growing concensus of experts who believe that Colorado River Basin streamflows, water supplies from which are stretched to their very limits today, are going to continue to diminish--by estimates of up to 30% by 2030.
Meanwhile, the explosive growth of population (in part fueled by readers of this forum, no doubt) are projected to continue throughout the region, based upon past trends. It should take no genius to see that population in Colorado and the southwest is headed for a head-on collision with diminishing water supplies. Like most hi-speed head-on colllisions, this one will result in catastrophic economic, social, and environmental destruction--along with a lot of collateral damage. Yet, no one wants to utter the unthinkable: that the West has already reached or exceeded its population "carrying capacity" and that there simply aren't the resources for any more significant population growth. Well, it has. And the result of ignoring this increasingly unrefutable truth will lead to the very unpleasant future consequence--not of debating how many more people and how much growth the West can absorb, but who and how many people will be staying in the region and how many will have to leave.
As a water "expert" friend of mine once opined, "Hey, IT'S A DESERT, STUPID!" Considering that the WETTEST locations in Colorado get less precipitation than most of the DRIEST locations in the Midwest and East, it's not a minor point. Mother Nature is setting up to remind modern Coloradans and southwesterners of the folly of ignoring that truth, just a she did 700+ years ago with the Anasazi inhabiting Mesa Verde. We are building modern "cliff dwellings" in Colorado today that will likely be abandoned just like those of the Anasazi when their water supplies depleted.
Last edited by Mike from back east; 11-13-2007 at 03:44 PM ..
Reason: To post a Mod note at start of thread.
05-31-2007, 03:20 PM
Location: Colorado Springs
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Where should we all run?
05-31-2007, 03:37 PM
Location: Crystal Lake IL
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Ok so i read your Post about the water issues in Colorado....
Tell me why are you so worried about this? The reason I ask is because in places like New York City,With over 8.2 million residents within an area of 322 square miles New York City has the highest population density of any major North American city in the US, Yet things work just fine.. Sounds like your having an issue with Pipes not water! Think about it. We put people in space with supplies for months if not years.. Resources are Very limited in space.
Yes there may be issues with an explosion in growth but honeslty I dont think Colorado measures up to the problems being faced by the other states. We all have our issues. What about Miami ... all it takes is a Cat4 Hurricane and its all over for everyone. ever thought about that one? What if a quake hit hard enough in California and sent eveyone off into the pacific ocean? Or better yet the real problem we all face... climbing gas prices.... how about that for a Problem. Bottom line i agree you may have conservation issues but they are very little compared to the rest of the country. Hey here is something for you to wrap your brain around go onto wikipedia.org and lookup The Trans-Alaska Pipeline System .... This Pipeline runs north to south , almost 800 miles if we can make that work under those conditions ...Please colorado is nothing but a walk in the park. I think that what needs to happen here is the right people need to be brought in Thinkers rather than Local Conservationist.
05-31-2007, 04:18 PM
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The amount of money (much of it your federal tax dollars) lavished on water projects in the Colorado River Basin over the last century is mind-boggling. Some of the brightest engineers I know have worked on these projects and have tackled (for decades) the problem of trying to sustain growth in an arid environment. The simple fact is: all of those brilliant people spending all of that money are running out of practical solutions to continue to try to accomodate millions of additional people in an arid environment. We have reached the limit.
Virtually any location in the country may be subject to a one-time disastrous event that may cause catastrophic damage over a limited area. The Western water crisis is much different. It is a escalating long-term crisis that will eventually affect a sizable physical area of the United States. My point is that the southwestern United States is about to face, within a very few years, some extremely unpleasant circumstances with equally unpleasant options available to deal with them. That people in Colorado might actually have to consider moving elsewhere seems unthinkable to today's Coloradans. That's not surprising, considering that the state has been growing for over one-half century. What is overlooked is the fact the much of the state was in population DECLINE for much of the half-century preceding that.
By the way, I do not consider myself a rabid environmentalist--far from it. But I do consider myself and ardent conservationist and I am proud of it. Americans very much need a greater "waste not, want not" attitude if we expect our following generations to have much of a life at all.
05-31-2007, 06:09 PM
Location: Carefree Arizona
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I agree somewhat with jazzlover that we need to instill in people more of the "waste not" attitude. The problem is we will only take this attitude to heart when the faucet if finally turned off. In the Phoenix Metropolitan area, I have seen the population jump from 1.8 million to almost 4 million in the short 14 years that I have been here. The economy is fueled by the Real Estate market with the more growth the better for Arizona attitude. They still build like crazy with people putting grass in a sonoran desert environment - with no regard for all the water it requires.
06-01-2007, 06:47 AM
Location: Old Forge, NY
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jazzlover has some valid concerns. What the front range takes not only affects Coloradoans but millions downstream.
Sure, build a pipe a few hundred miles long. However, I think it would be cheaper if people would stop growing kentucky bluegrass lawns and Colorado would do a better job preventing water loss.
If you wanna nice green lawn, move east.
06-01-2007, 09:17 AM
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It's somewhat shocking to see the ignorance about this region and the condescending attitude about a resource that's functionally not available.
We could build all the pipelines, water storage, and water distribution systems imagineable, and that doesn't begin to address the fundamental problem in the region ... there's little water available to start with.
What part of "drought" don't people understand?
06-01-2007, 10:07 AM
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Jazzlover, I agree with your assessment. This is probably the #1 issue that will affect Colorado and all the other western states in the future. I feel that even now we in the state still lack the will to act to lead a drive to mandate the kind of conservation measures necessary.
06-01-2007, 10:46 AM
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Wow, amazing someone would even try to compare Colorado water problems with the east. There are too many people moving to Colorado - there are too many people that have already moved here and jazzlover isn't just speculating or "fussing". Wells are drying up and aquifers are rapidly depleting. Jazzlover do not apologize. You are correct and it is vital for people to quite poking their heads in the sand - I hardly think Wikipedia is the ideal resource for informed exchange of ideas on water issues.
06-01-2007, 10:55 AM
Location: Phoenix metro
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Great points and good write-up Jazzlover! Its a big issue, no doubt. I dont foresee the SW or west drying up in my lifetime, but sooner or later I imagine it will.
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People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)