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Old 10-01-2018, 03:48 PM
 
11,493 posts, read 8,993,967 times
Reputation: 7074

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlb919 View Post
I get the vibe that you believe you're talking to a bunch of clueless people on here. You keep linking article after article (which unless it's scholarly, I'm not clicking) and telling us we're all wrong, yet you've failed to actually prove how any of this is quantifiable. It's like you're shocked that we aren't getting it, but trust me, we get that you believe Cleveland is superior. The reality is that the cultural amenities, architecture, transit, and sports are great assets but they aren't fixing the city. The city isn't growing, unemployment is higher, poverty is significantly higher, median household income is significantly lower, and in an increasing knowledge economy Cleveland is still fighting brain drain, GDP is up being that its well tied into legacy assets, but not in any way unreachable for cities like Columbus or Cincinnati.

Here is the best way I can explain this... If I am prospecting cities, I am looking at the entire picture. While Cleveland may have 'superior' cultural amenities like Playhouse Square or CMA, cities like Columbus or Cincinnati or Indy also have cultural amenities. So while the cultural amenity equivalent may not be on the same level, they still exist. Columbus has a top rated Science Museum, Indianapolis has a top rated Children's Museum, and Cincinnati a top rated Contemporary Arts Center. So, as long as amenities exist, many are often going to pick the market that is more tangibly prosperous for many that isn't Cleveland.

You have every right to be proud of Cleveland's assets but you also need to be realistic about it's overall offerings and how it stacks up to it's peers. Even with all of Clevelands accolades, people are choosing Columbus, Cincinnati, Indy, Charlotte, Nashville, Denver, and Austin for a reason.
I don't know if you are clueless, but I've documented one after another of your inaccurate or misleading statements.

I've posted substantive links backing my points. Sorry you don't read them. Many of my links provide government statistics.

You substantiate none of your statements. In this post, I don't know if you're comparing MSAs or actual cities, an important difference given the much larger size of Columbus, both absolutely and as a percentage of the metro.

Given the fact that you are making factual statements, please provide the links substantiating your statements. I'm not going to look them up as I've already spent too much time dealing with your inaccuracies. Not knowing what you're talking about, and without links substantiating your statements, I can only suspect that some of your statements are inaccurate or misleading, or very misleading (e.g., City of Cleveland vs. City of Columbus, rather metro vs. metro).

Are your really so obtuse that you believe that all cultural institutions are remotely equal in quality in every city? Zanesville has a very good, small city art museum. In some ways, it is more unique than the Columbus Museum of Art (a heavy emphasis on the city's pottery), but nobody (except perhaps a Zanesville homer) would say it was the equal of the Columbus Museum of Art.

Columbus tripadvisor.com reviewers rate the Columbus Museum of Art as the 22nd best attraction in Columbus, after the likes of Huntington Park, Shadowbox Live (a fun place!!!), Whetstone Park of Roses, and Polaris Fashion Place!

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...#FILTERED_LIST

Despite a much heftier list of attractions (such as the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum, major pro sports venues, etc.), the Cleveland Museum of Art and the Cleveland Orchestra at Severance Hall are ranked 1-2 in things to do by tripadvisor.com in Cleveland. Read the reviews. There is a vast difference in the experience of a visit to a world class institution and a much lesser one. As I've noted in other posts, persons do want to live near very high quality cultural institutions, even though apparently that's not your preference.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti...land_Ohio.html

And I've documented repeatedly that per capita GDP in Greater Cleveland is higher and growing faster than the Columbus and Cincinnati metros. Dismissing the significance of this significant reality is hardly even sophomoric, especially with your nonsensical explanation "[Cleveland] GDP is up being that its well tied into legacy assets." Such a statement makes me wonder if you even know the significance of GDP as an ultimate statistical measurement of the health of any economy. Do you ever listen to business networks or read the business media??? Just guessing your thinking, BTW, don't you consider Ohio state government or even Ohio State, gigantic contributors to the Columbus economy, as legacy economic assets?

With a 6 percent higher real per capita personal income than Columbus, which I documented using the St. Louis Fed FRED database, how is Cleveland not more prosperous than Columbus? How are Clevelanders able to provide so much greater financial support to its cultural institutions than Columbus if Columbus is more prosperous. How was Cleveland able to create the highly acclaimed PlayhouseSquare theater district in half a century?

What Cleveland bashers fail to grasp, is that Cleveland just now is emerging from a half century of destruction of the base of its former economy -- manufacturing. What is past is past. What is future is future, and the two are not always connected (e.g., Cleveland's future outlook in 1920 despite the massive growth and achievements of its prior century). Cleveland's legacy cultural assets are extremely difficult to replace; as I've noted, the gap between cultural institutions in Cleveland and those in Columbus is widening, not narrowing.

As I've repeatedly said, interested parties should just visit Cleveland and Columbus, checking out whatever interests them -- cultural institutions, parks, pro sports venues, suburbs, mas transit, etc. The veracity of my posts should be evident when they make their comparisons.

Last edited by WRnative; 10-01-2018 at 05:08 PM..
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Old 10-01-2018, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
16,273 posts, read 16,946,909 times
Reputation: 7824
Serious question for people who believe Cleveland is the obviously superior city- why do you personally believe that it’s not attractive to people as a place to move in large enough numbers to reverse its long-term decline? I am not interested in hearing another rehashing of its supposed amenities over other places. The question is why Cleveland, and whatever strengths it has, have so far not changed its overall trajectory, not only to other Ohioans, but nationally?
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Old 10-01-2018, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
14,224 posts, read 13,375,754 times
Reputation: 14524
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Serious question for people who believe Cleveland is the obviously superior city- why do you personally believe that it’s not attractive to people as a place to move in large enough numbers to reverse its long-term decline? I am not interested in hearing another rehashing of its supposed amenities over other places. The question is why Cleveland, and whatever strengths it has, have so far not changed its overall trajectory, not only to other Ohioans, but nationally?
It is quite the mystery, given Cleveland's superiority in every department, including economy. Despite the numbers saying otherwise

https://www.clevelandfed.org/newsroo...cleveland.aspx
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-e...18-4?r=US&IR=T
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkot.../#253490f61f0c
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Old 10-01-2018, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati (Norwood)
3,530 posts, read 4,723,351 times
Reputation: 1914
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Serious question for people who believe Cleveland is the obviously superior city- why do you personally believe that it’s not attractive to people as a place to move in large enough numbers to reverse its long-term decline? I am not interested in hearing another rehashing of its supposed amenities over other places. The question is why Cleveland, and whatever strengths it has, have so far not changed its overall trajectory, not only to other Ohioans, but nationally?
OMG, now you done it, JB - you've just handed the SpinMeister the material for him to come back and blow out all the net servers in Cbus! However, depending upon what kind of surge protector you may have installed there in Mexico City, you just might survive the blast.
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Old 10-01-2018, 04:45 PM
 
11,493 posts, read 8,993,967 times
Reputation: 7074
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Serious question for people who believe Cleveland is the obviously superior city- why do you personally believe that it’s not attractive to people as a place to move in large enough numbers to reverse its long-term decline? I am not interested in hearing another rehashing of its supposed amenities over other places. The question is why Cleveland, and whatever strengths it has, have so far not changed its overall trajectory, not only to other Ohioans, but nationally?
Like you, I can only speculate, putting on my economics cap. As Columbus likely will discover in the near future (physical retail industry decline), when there is a massive dislocation in the dominant sector of an economy, it's difficult to shift skills and resources immediately to a new and growing segment.

The decline of American manufacturing hit Cleveland and other "rust belt" cities hard. Pittsburgh managed to pivot much more quickly than most impacted cities, and now is more prosperous than any of Ohio's major MSAs, from my review of statistics, if my memory serves me correctly.

Cleveland's out-migration, perhaps as in Columbus, was fueled by retirees migrating to Florida and other southern states.

With Cleveland's GDP now growing faster than Columbus and Cincinnati, and at a 2.9 percent rate compared with a national MSA average of 2.1, or almost 40 percent faster than average, this is an encouraging variable if it's sustained. There should be a corresponding relative growth in the population, especially given Greater Cleveland's older demographics; otherwise Greater Cleveland productivity will grow much faster than average and if there is an accompanying influx of younger employees, Greater Cleveland's demographics should become more youthful.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/i...rt_river_index

The Bureau of Economic Analysis metro GDP report is linked at the bottom of the above article.

So the next few decades could be very interesting and positive for Cleveland, again if the GDP growth is sustainable.

Perhaps, considering the first link in post 113, and comments in the above article, Cleveland's GDP growth is now powered by a smaller number of highly paid and productive jobs (e.g., corporate headquarters employment) which doesn't quickly increase general employment and incomes.

The unemployment rate chart in this link (from post 113) is very fascinating. I don't know why the unemployment rate in Cleveland and Ohio spiked so much from 2015 to 2017, before beginning to rapidly revert to the mean in mid-2017. This likely explains the high 2017 GDP growth rate in the Cleveland MSA to some degree.

https://www.clevelandfed.org/newsroo...cleveland.aspx

Last edited by WRnative; 10-01-2018 at 05:10 PM..
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Old 10-01-2018, 07:06 PM
on3
 
428 posts, read 271,019 times
Reputation: 524
If I was to relocate back out of Cincinnati, it would probably be a toss up between Cbus and CLE. As long as I'm still in Ohio, that's all that matters. In both locations, including Cincinnati, I've done just about everything to the point where people ask me why it doesn't feel more worn out than a catcher's mitt from the very first world series. It just doesn't. I'm never bored here in Ohio. It's almost unfair to have this cost of living while constantly being entertained.
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Old 10-02-2018, 01:38 AM
 
11,493 posts, read 8,993,967 times
Reputation: 7074
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
With Cleveland's GDP now growing faster than Columbus and Cincinnati, and at a 2.9 percent rate compared with a national MSA average of 2.1, or almost 40 percent faster than average, this is an encouraging variable if it's sustained. There should be a corresponding relative growth in the population, especially given Greater Cleveland's older demographics; otherwise Greater Cleveland productivity will grow much faster than average and if there is an accompanying influx of younger employees, Greater Cleveland's demographics should become more youthful.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/i...rt_river_index
I've been puzzling over this paragraph from the Cleveland.com article:

<<According to their data, the natural resources and mining sector, was the largest contributor to the growth rate, accounting for 1.37 percentage points of the 2.9 percent growth. >>

What accounted for this? E.g., there is relatively little fracking drilling activity in Greater Cleveland, although it does exist, or at least did exist when natural gas prices were much higher several years ago. There are mining and energy corporations in Cleveland, a legacy of the Rockefeller years, and at least one (Cleveland-Cliffs) has experienced a strong recovery. But wouldn't any increase in employment at Cleveland-Cliffs headquarters be included in professional service and headquarters employment and not in natural resources and mining employment?

However, it popped into my head that this strength in an unexpected sector may reflect the construction of a massive natural gas pipeline through Medina and Lorain Counties, two of the five counties in Greater Cleveland.

NEXUS is a go; construction could begin within a month - Chronicle-Telegram

Work on NEXUS pipeline in south Oberlin begins - Chronicle-Telegram

If this is a big hunk of Greater Cleveland GDP growth in 2017, it will continue into 2018 before evaporating. So it will interesting to see what 2019 brings as far as Greater Cleveland GDP growth; it may be a downer if the NEXUS pipeline is indeed fueling 2017 and 2018 Greater Cleveland GDP growth as explained.

The construction of this pipeline likely will be a negative for the Greater Cleveland economy once built. The massive right-of-way will be removed from productive use, and I don't believe (I'm not certain) that pipelines, just as with railroads, are subject to local property taxes nor income taxation....

Perhaps the pipeline will benefit the Greater Cleveland economy by providing an abundant supply of relatively cheap natural gas from the Marcellus and Utica shales in western PA and eastern OH. Natural gas prices are cheaper in Greater Cleveland than in Greater Columbus, and possibly may be even cheaper after the Nexus pipeline is completed.

Residential prices for natural gas in Greater Columbus currently are around $4.251 per mcf (multiply by 10 to adjust for Columbia Gas pricing in Greater Columbus in ccf) in Greater Columbus versus $2.965 per mcf for Dominion Gas in Greater Cleveland.

http://www.energychoice.ohio.gov/App...d=8&RateCode=1

http://www.energychoice.ohio.gov/App...d=1&RateCode=1

Until researching this, I didn't realize that residential natural gas prices were 43 percent higher in Greater Columbus than in Greater Cleveland. I'm surprised by this, wondering if I'm missing something.... Does anybody else have an insight?

Lower natural gas prices would provide a boost to discretionary income exclusive of energy expenses, benefiting retail sales and other economic activity, perhaps in addition to lower housing prices explaining why real per capita personal income is 6 percent higher in Greater Cleveland than Greater Columbus. And there are likely comparable differences in pricing for commercial and industrial customers.

Am I miscalculating something, are Greater Columbus residents being unfairly gouged, or are delivered natural gas prices higher in Greater Columbus because the delivery asset base was constructed much more recently and has a much higher cost than the older Greater Cleveland local natural gas pipeline system (but I don't think local delivery charges are included in the above linked prices but are billed separately)?

It's also possible that natural gas pipelines from the Marcellus and Utica sands to Greater Columbus do not (yet) exist. I also believe that I read once that Dominion (formerly East Ohio Gas) has much more substantial storage capacity than Columbia Gas in Ohio, allowing it to lower prices by buying natural gas during periods of weak natural gas demand in the spring and autumn "shoulder" seasons (natural gas demand increases in the summer as it is used to generate electricity for air conditioning).

Columbus residents should demand that their local politicians and media investigate the reason for this apparently significant pricing difference. I can't find anything on the web to explain the difference.

Last edited by WRnative; 10-02-2018 at 02:34 AM..
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Old 10-02-2018, 07:24 AM
 
233 posts, read 376,706 times
Reputation: 164
I have not followed this thread to any great extent, however....my two cents.
Many of us are on “link” fatigue. Many of us do not read here for “substantive data”. Many of us do not read here for constant political hammering and political spin.
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Old 10-02-2018, 07:33 AM
 
11,493 posts, read 8,993,967 times
Reputation: 7074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebush1 View Post
I have not followed this thread to any great extent, however....my two cents.
Many of us are on “link” fatigue. Many of us do not read here for “substantive data”. Many of us do not read here for constant political hammering and political spin.
Then don't read posts or threads that you don't like!!! I understand, because I'm tired of all of the barbs directed at posters trying to argue a substantive position by those who have nothing to contribute to the discussion other than veiled insults.

However, looking through your posting history, you have no trouble with threads built around links when you like what is being said, e.g., re: Urban Meyer or Miami.

Personally, I don't get the point of a forum where the only acceptable posts are unsubstantiated opinions or even more ridiculously, unsubstantiated statements of alleged fact.

I guess if you enjoy the Trumpian world (sorry), then the intrusion of objective reality is painful. E.g., do you honestly believe you can talk about mass transit in Ohio and not discuss the refusal of Kasich and Republicans to fund mass transit systems in Ohio?

Last edited by WRnative; 10-02-2018 at 07:55 AM..
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Old 10-02-2018, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Kansas City MO
599 posts, read 494,700 times
Reputation: 1816
Kasich is pretty anti-Trump though, why would person that is pro-Trump defend something boneheaded that Kasich did?
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