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I'm sure Cleveland has made some investments, but my argument is that it's not enough. By gimmicks, I mean the long-standing focus on big, flashy stuff, but not enough of what matters to most people. For example, why do Clevelanders here put *so* much focus on Cleveland's cultural or institutional amenities rather than anything else? Because that's its strength and you all keep falling back on it. Can you talk about safety? No, because it's one of the most dangerous cities in the country for crime. Can you talk about schools? No, because they're as bad or worse than other urban school districts. Can you talk about efforts between the city, county and suburbs to support a better region? Nope, and if anything, that's a competitive, rather than collaborative relationship. Can you talk about how large swaths of the city are seeing revitalization? No, not really. You can certainly point to some progress here and there, but I would argue compared to its closest peer in Ohio- Cincinnati- and other cities in the Midwest, it's not doing anything particularly groundbreaking and is probably even lagging behind. Every major city in the US is seeing urban revitalization to some extent, after all. I'm not seeing anything that sets Cleveland's apart, and I actually care about and follow this stuff. If I'm not seeing it, do you think the average non-Clevelander is?
"Inferior" is not a word I've used to describe Cleveland, though, and won't. I am just stating what I think are some issues holding it back from reaching its greater potential. Unlike how some of you feel about Columbus, I don't think Cleveland's success comes at the expense of anywhere else, so I have no irrational need to see it fail. I want it to thrive and I am rooting for it even as you all root against Central Ohio.
You really don't know what you're talking about and sound, er, highly uninformed... For your sake: quit while you're ahead.
The Cleveland Museum of Art is a gimmick, you heard it here first.
The people on here that love Columbus so much are always so quick to say that legacy things don't matter. Public transit doesn't matter, culture doesn't matter, good archtecture doesn't matter etc. This is such a bad way to defend Columbus. They don't even try to make the point that critics are misinformed and bring up things about the city we don't know. Fact is, Columbus is extremely easy to figure out, and it's hard to not. The problem is that once you see how boring and bland it is, well, you're right. Defending Columbus by saying the Cleveland Museum of Art sucks is such a loser mentality. I hope this logic is extended to places like NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, etc. All gimmicky cities!
Here, I am going to defend Columbus for real in a way that these homers can't:
What Columbus lacks in legacy city amenities and characteristics, it makes up for in human capital, in thanks largely to the top 50 nationwide Ohio State University, which brings in some of the highest achievers across the state. The staffing requirements of a massive university along with state government has provided Columbus a base of decently paid people that are less subject to economic difficulties. Whether or not it is "fair" to concentrate all these state resources in Columbus is another question, the fact is that's what we have.
The central areas of the city are just as good as any such neighborhoods in Cincinnati or Cleveland. The general area that includes the Short North, Victorian Village, German Village, Italian Village, and Olde Towne East is comparable to Cleveland's near west side and exceeds it actually on several levels: the street activity, variety of shops and other retail, better central location without having to cross something like a massive bridge, the architecture and urban design here is also just as good if not beter. If you zoom out a bit and want to look at the entire High Street Corridor, there is a quality urban, dense, amenity filled stretch from Merion VIllage all the way to Worthington, over 10 miles. This is no small area. In fact, Clevleland and Cincinnati have no stretch even half as long.
Columbus does not have the legacy cultural amenities of the other C's. For those, a Columbus resident does indeed have to visit Cleveland or Cincinnati. However, what Columbus does have is often underrated, including the Wexner Center for the Arts, COSI, King Arts Complex, and Columbus Metropolitan Library, which all feature high quality programming for local residents.
Columbus's largest failing is the lack of public transit, which is even more compounded by the fact that many neighborhoods not off the High Street corridor are frankly not walkable too. There is no sugar coating this, it's a challenge that must be overcome. With continued growth and development, I believe it will be addressed, though efforts to this point have been subpar.
The hardest to "solve" problem in Columbus is it's lack of an identity, as Columbus does not have the same historical patterns of immigration and development of legacy cities. The roots here are not as deep, and the thing that most people have in common now is going to the same university, which while fine, is not the same as having been on the same boat over here, belonging to the same religion or other much deeper things that Cleveland and Cincinnati folks have. There are not many multigenerational Columbus families. However, this is also an opportunity for something new to take root. America fundamentally is a forward looking country, so while it is certainly not bad to be rooted in older things or places, I believe Columbus will gain that rootedness in other ways that are less obvious at the moment. For the time being, that atmosphere is best left to the other C's.
Though crime has been bad across the state lately, Columbus still has better crime stats than Cleveland and Cincinnati overall.
Columbus doesn't have the most popular pro sports, but there is no better place if you are a big College Football fan with the Buckeyes. But it's more than football, OSU also has teams across all sports which can be enjoyed for a fraction of the cost of professional leagues, such as OSU basketball or hockey. Speaking of hockey, Columbus Blue Jackets are the only NHL team in Ohio. Columbus Crew MLS team has been historically successful and has a lovely new stadium downtown. The Columbus Clippers are the highest baseball league besides the MLB and affiliated with the Cleveland Guardians. It's a great place to see big leaguers on rehab stints or the next up and coming stars, again, at a fraction of the price.
Proximity to Hocking Hills also cannot be overlooked at about an hour southeast of the city. While not in the metropolitan area itself, Hocking Hills remains the most popular hiking desitnation for Central Ohioans and is the most dramatic in the state, far exceeding Cuyahoga Valley National Park.
Columbus also threads the needle in terms of weather, warmer and less snowy than Cleveland in winter but also not as oppressively hot as Cincinnati in the summer. It's rare in Columbus to have days that you really feel you just can't go outside.
The various Ohio cities taken together would really be an ultimate megalopolis if they were all contiguous. You'd have something for everyone and would not lack in quality compared to even coastal cities or Chicago. They each have slightly different strengths and weaknesses that can appeal to various people depending on preference. On a few objective measures, I can't claim that Columbus is obviously the superior of the three, but I have reason to believe that 10, 20 years in the future that gap will be closed. I would rather be a part of forging that path now than walking the well tred paths of the other two major Ohio cities.
Correction. I'm "bashing" Columbus; I actually lived there and spoke from direct knowledge and didn't like it. It's my right, just as it's yours to not like Cleveland, which you apparently don't. But try and engage in facts, not nonsensical non-sequiturs such as Cleveland neighborhood restoration is "gimmickry" and not a matter of deep investment with an eye toward positive change. And no, it's not just me, it's a whole lot of people who feel Columbus is overblown/overrated and, just as I saw, directly, when I lived there: C-Bus people always had a chip on their shoulders; always putting Cleveland down to try and boost up their egos. And C-D threads like these, and other similar ones, indicate that mentality among Columbusites still hasn't gone away.
Ouch. You really, really don't like Columbus. Are you a Cleveland native? I grew up in Cincinnati, and even though I haven't lived there for 40 years, I still consider it home. (I have been back regularly for visits as I have family there, so it's not like I have been completely removed from the area.) I like Columbus quite a bit (don't hate me too much!) but just because of my "roots" I think I would always pick Cincinnati as my preferred city given a choice. Was curious if your preference toward Cleveland might be driven by growing up there, and the familiarity of the place.
Yet here you are, doing exactly that. You're not bashing Columbus without context, you're doing it directly in comparison to a city you prefer. You all are. Otherwise, why even care what someone says about Columbus? Why come to this forum at all? It has nothing to do with setting the record straight or whatever you all tell yourselves. You manifest the exact type of insecurity you all project onto others regarding Columbus. And it's all so stupid.
I may be a tad confused, but isnt this a thread with a poll asking to compare Columbus and Cincinnati as which is the better of the two and stating that these are the two best metros (leaving Cleve as third)>?
Just saying that the thread and corresponding poll are impossible to engage without comparing the metros positively and negatively. Anywho...
What Columbus lacks in legacy city amenities and characteristics, it makes up for in human capital, in thanks largely to the top 50 nationwide Ohio State University, which brings in some of the highest achievers across the state.
Ohio State is a major/awesome facility. Cincinnati and Cleveland have significant universities/colleges, but nothing on the scale of OSU. Few places in the entire country have university facilities on par with Ohio State. Hard for anyone to complete with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24
central areas of the city are just as good as any such neighborhoods in Cincinnati or Cleveland. The general area that includes the Short North, Victorian Village, German Village, Italian Village, and Olde Towne East is comparable to Cleveland's near west side and exceeds it actually on several levels: the street activity, variety of shops and other retail, better central location without having to cross something like a massive bridge, the architecture and urban design here is also just as good if not beter. If you zoom out a bit and want to look at the entire High Street Corridor, there is a quality urban, dense, amenity filled stretch from Merion VIllage all the way to Worthington, over 10 miles. This is no small area. In fact, Cleveland and Cincinnati have no stretch even half as long.
Maybe it's a bit more suburban, but the east side of Cincinnati (moving from south to north) with downtown, Mariemont, Hyde Park/Oakley, Madeira, Kenwood, Blue Ash, Loveland, Mason is a pretty significantly developed contiguous stretch of space. Might be 15 miles in length. Tons of businesses, retail, dining, recreation, residential options, etc. Have some pretty decent and distinctive, residential architecture particularly in Hyde Park, Mariemont.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24
doesn't have the most popular pro sports, but there is no better place if you are a big College Football fan with the Buckeyes. But it's more than football, OSU also has teams across all sports which can be enjoyed for a fraction of the cost of professional leagues, such as OSU basketball or hockey. Speaking of hockey, Columbus Blue Jackets are the only NHL team in Ohio. Columbus Crew MLS team has been historically successful and has a lovely new stadium downtown. The Columbus Clippers are the highest baseball league besides the MLB and affiliated with the Cleveland Guardians. It's a great place to see big leaguers on rehab stints or the next up and coming stars, again, at a fraction of the price.
I have to somewhat disagree with you here. For me, I think Cincinnati and Cleveland are both way better sports towns than Columbus. Yes, Ohio State has Buckeye Football, but other than that, I would say OSU's major fan-based sports programs are solid, but not all that riveting---men's basketball being the most notable under achieving program---60+ years without a championship. And, the Blue Jackets pretty much, unfortunately, suck. If I were to rank the three cities in terms of sports breadth and success, I'd have to put Columbus last. (To be fair, I am in a bad state of mind right now, coming off that dismal Cotton Bowl Performance, and Blue's win over Alabama last night. Maybe I'll reassess my ranking if we beat Michigan next year!)
You really don't know what you're talking about and sound, er, highly uninformed... For your sake: quit while you're ahead.
So why, for example, did Cleveland have so few building permits this year compared to many other Midwest cities, including those in Ohio, if it's seeing equal or greater neighborhood revitalization?
And was I lying about crime rates or schools? Instead of just making a lazy "you're wrong" post, why don't you tell me specifically how I am.
^I clearly acknowledged Cleveland and its neighborhood progress is not perfect and there's a ways to go. But banging the City for crime and schools is "lazy." Insert Chicago, Philly, Detroit, Cincy, etc, etc, and you can make the same statement.
I clearly acknowledged Cleveland and its neighborhood progress is not perfect and there's a ways to go. But banging the City for crime and schools is "lazy." Insert Chicago, Philly, Detroit, Cincy, etc, etc, and you can make the same statement.
Also, crime in Columbus is bad. It's no picnic out here. Second most homicides ever in 2023, up from 2022. In the last two weeks, I've had a package taken and car broken into twice. It's kinda miserable.
Ouch. You really, really don't like Columbus. Are you a Cleveland native? I grew up in Cincinnati, and even though I haven't lived there for 40 years, I still consider it home. (I have been back regularly for visits as I have family there, so it's not like I have been completely removed from the area.) I like Columbus quite a bit (don't hate me too much!) but just because of my "roots" I think I would always pick Cincinnati as my preferred city given a choice. Was curious if your preference toward Cleveland might be driven by growing up there, and the familiarity of the place.
I lived and worked for a year in Columbus; was quite comfortable and had a lot of fun. Hung out in a number of cool clubs, esp jazz clubs, on the strip in/near OSU, some of which is now a part of Short North. I liked the campus and campus area as well as German Village (very historic, interesting, cool beer halls, and walkable --> kind of the anti-Columbus in miniature). OSU, to me, is the main generator for C-Bus culture, diverse international community and entertainment (esp sports)... Other than this, there was not of interest in Columbus to me and every 3rd or 4th weekend, I would be in my car headed up I-71 to friends and family in Cleveland. Yes, that was a family/hometown thing but, really, it was because there is so much more to do in Cleveland. The entertainment, restaurant, culture and sports attractions are spread across Greater Cleveland and not confined to 1 or 2 areas as I find in C-Bus.
My job often had me travel to Cincinnati, which I too found much more diverse and historically interesting (and, of course, hilly) than Columbus. And, as I said, there was the constant drone of little attacks on Cleveland by Columbusites: "It's dirty; it's dangerous, too much crime," etc., to the point it really appeared as an inferiority complex -- not just to me, but to other non-Columbusites who were not necessarily Clevelanders. And, of course, that helped shape an even more negative opinion of C-Bus, which of course I recognize and applaud its growth -- and I'll always be an Ohio State fan -- but, overall, I see as rather empty and pathetic.
I lived and worked for a year in Columbus; was quite comfortable and had a lot of fun. Hung out in a number of cool clubs, esp jazz clubs, on the strip in/near OSU, some of which is now a part of Short North. I liked the campus and campus area as well as German Village (very historic, interesting, cool beer halls, and walkable --> kind of the anti-Columbus in miniature). OSU, to me, is the main generator for C-Bus culture, diverse international community and entertainment (esp sports)... Other than this, there was not of interest in Columbus to me and every 3rd or 4th weekend, I would be in my car headed up I-71 to friends and family in Cleveland. Yes, that was a family/hometown thing but, really, it was because there is so much more to do in Cleveland. The entertainment, restaurant, culture and sports attractions are spread across Greater Cleveland and not confined to 1 or 2 areas as I find in C-Bus.
My job often had me travel to Cincinnati, which I too found much more diverse and historically interesting (and, of course, hilly) than Columbus. And, as I said, there was the constant drone of little attacks on Cleveland by Columbusites: "It's dirty; it's dangerous, too much crime," etc., to the point it really appeared as an inferiority complex -- not just to me, but to other non-Columbusites who were not necessarily Clevelanders. And, of course, that helped shape an even more negative opinion of C-Bus, which of course I recognize and applaud its growth -- and I'll always be an Ohio State fan -- but, overall, I see as rather empty and pathetic.
Well, sorry that the totality of your experience with the folks in Columbus was not positive. Sounds like their perceptions about Cleveland hit a bit too close to home for you. My guess is that they probably aren't as familiar as the Cleveland area as you are, and their thoughts may be not as well considered as your own. But it sounds like you found a place to live where you are comfortable and to the extent you want to revisit any of your old haunts in Columbus, they are just a few hours down the road.
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