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You know I get a little annoyed by people who automatically assume that every puppy store gets their dogs from puppy mills. What is your definition of a puppy mill? Just because a puppy comes from a breeder that breeds and sells multiple dogs does not mean that the puppy is sickly or a product of bad breeding.
We went to a breeder that made their living breeding and selling puppies. Nothing wrong with that. The place was incredibly clean and well maintained. There were multiple dogs available. We wanted a particular breed and if we bought it at a local breeder we would have paid double. Sure there are many bad mass breeders but to label all of them bad is wrong. The best thing to do is research breeders and find one that allows you to visit them in person. That means they have nothing to hide. Jay
While i agree that there are reputable breeders, i think most pet store purchases are impulse and uneducated (i've seen it first hand). Regardless if they are puppy mill dogs or not. I'm into fish and reptiles, have worked at a pet store, and frequent some that do sell dogs/cats. I also frequent shelters...and i think once you see or experience the sad reality first hand you begin to condemn pet stores and irresponsible breeders. Its a natural reaction.
Kidyankee, Australian Shepherds are referred to as Aussies by breed fanciers as myself.
JayCT, I've been doing rescue for about 15 years now, I've several years experience working for a veterinarian and I've worked for animal services.
I am very pro responsible breeder. I know a lot of people are against all breeders. There is such a world of difference between a person who is breeding for the big 2: health and temperament versus someone breeding for money.
I don't care how clean a person's facilities are. They should be clean. That is the tip of the iceberg in determining a good breeder. The really top notch breeders put so much money into their dogs, that they are still in the red after the sell the puppies.
And while pet stores deny, deny, they all get their puppies from mills because no good breeder would sell their puppies to a broker. Ever. Good breeders will want to meet the family buying one of their dogs. Pet stores are known for selling to dum dums with credit cards.
99% of all pet store puppies come from Hunte or Lambrier. These are puppy mill brokers. The brokers go from mill to mill purchasing puppies. So the pups go from mill to broker to pet store. When a pet store is selling an 8 or 10 week old pup, you can be sure that dog was taken from its mother at 5 or 6 weeks which is way too young.
It's funny that 100% of pet stores will deny they buy from mills. Yet, ask yourself this. The puppy mill business is a multi million dollar business. Who are they selling to if not pet stores? Who is buying the thousands and thousands of puppies each year if not the pets stores? Pet stores get away with saying they buy from breeders because puppy millers are in fact breeders. They just breed in mass numbers.
A backyard breeder is a notch up from the puppy millers because at least they aren't keeping dogs stacked in rabbit cages in an old barn. But in terms of breeding for health or temperament, backyard breeders fail miserably. They tend to breed for fun and for money. "Let's see the dog have puppies" or "Let's make some money." Two no-no's in responsible breeding.
Example of lab breeders: 100% of good breeders will only breed labs that are OFA certfied with an excellent rating. Most backyard breeders don't even know what OFA is.
If I'm going to get a dog of questionable breeding, I'll adopt and save myself a ton of money as well as save a life in the process.
Sorry to be preachy. I just have a lot of experience with this and it taints my view. My vet on the other hand love pet store puppies. They bring him in a lot of business.
Kidyankee, Australian Shepherds are referred to as Aussies by breed fanciers as myself.
JayCT, I've been doing rescue for about 15 years now, I've several years experience working for a veterinarian and I've worked for animal services.
I am very pro responsible breeder. I know a lot of people are against all breeders. There is such a world of difference between a person who is breeding for the big 2: health and temperament versus someone breeding for money.
I don't care how clean a person's facilities are. They should be clean. That is the tip of the iceberg in determining a good breeder. The really top notch breeders put so much money into their dogs, that they are still in the red after the sell the puppies.
And while pet stores deny, deny, they all get their puppies from mills because no good breeder would sell their puppies to a broker. Ever. Good breeders will want to meet the family buying one of their dogs. Pet stores are known for selling to dum dums with credit cards.
99% of all pet store puppies come from Hunte or Lambrier. These are puppy mill brokers. The brokers go from mill to mill purchasing puppies. So the pups go from mill to broker to pet store. When a pet store is selling an 8 or 10 week old pup, you can be sure that dog was taken from its mother at 5 or 6 weeks which is way too young.
It's funny that 100% of pet stores will deny they buy from mills. Yet, ask yourself this. The puppy mill business is a multi million dollar business. Who are they selling to if not pet stores? Who is buying the thousands and thousands of puppies each year if not the pets stores? Pet stores get away with saying they buy from breeders because puppy millers are in fact breeders. They just breed in mass numbers.
A backyard breeder is a notch up from the puppy millers because at least they aren't keeping dogs stacked in rabbit cages in an old barn. But in terms of breeding for health or temperament, backyard breeders fail miserably. They tend to breed for fun and for money. "Let's see the dog have puppies" or "Let's make some money." Two no-no's in responsible breeding.
Example of lab breeders: 100% of good breeders will only breed labs that are OFA certfied with an excellent rating. Most backyard breeders don't even know what OFA is.
If I'm going to get a dog of questionable breeding, I'll adopt and save myself a ton of money as well as save a life in the process.
Sorry to be preachy. I just have a lot of experience with this and it taints my view. My vet on the other hand love pet store puppies. They bring him in a lot of business.
Yankeerose - the problem I have with this is that most of the so called "good breeders" are ridiculously expensive. Most people can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on a puppy but that is what most of these places charge particularly when you want a particular breed. When we looked for a dog I saw prices that were unbelieveable (like $2,000+). Maybe that is important for someone into the breeding part of getting a pet but for the average consumer it is way out of line.
Our first dog was from a backyard breeder 18 years ago. He was great and lived 14 years which is above average for his breed. He did have hip problems though they weren't serious until his final year.
Our next dog was from what some would say is a puppy mill. We bought him direct from a farmer who breeds and sells directly. Like I said the place was very clean. The dogs looked well cared for but were definitely there to breed. They were let out on the farm and were played with by children there so they weren't treated horribly from what I saw. We had this one a couple of years now and he is great too.
Our third dog (we currently have two) is the same breed and was given to us as a puppy because the family had very young children, were expecting another and could not keep up with a puppy. He was one of those expensive dogs from a major breeder here in Connecticut. He has a milder disposition than our other dog but I think that has more to do with being the second dog in the pack.
My point is that you do not have to spend $$$$ to get a good dog. They are all wonderful. I do not believe in treating dogs cruelly but I also don't think there is a need to go overboard either. Jay
actualy ive seen higher prices from bybs and puppy stores than i have form any GooD breeder...
ill used the a breed im involved with.
a good show bred hairless chinese crested female on a PET contract, parents patellas, hips and eye clear pcrd-PRA clear. parents both show titles in both agility and confo. parents and grandparents (and further back) health and temperment KNOWN. about $900-$1200 (more if you want show/breeding contract) add to that ill get a lifetime genetic guarentee (meaning the breeder helps with any genetic health issues that shoudl pop up, and a good sign its not likely) plus i know if i need AnYTHING i can call that breeder at any point in my dogs life and beyond with questions/for support.
i could get a hairless female on a pet contract from a mill/mass breeder, no health or temperment testing on parents, no titles...the place may or may not look clean but the parents are kept in cages/kennels and ive no idea what their temperments are like outside of those kennels... that puppy will cost anything fron $400-$800 from a mill (but could cost me an additional $1500+ if the patellas luxate, hip problems even more and theres a very high likleynes of early blindness due to no prcd-PRA testing) add to that the risk associated with not having a generla idea of the genetic temperment...
theres NO contract, no warentee, no breeder support
or i could go with a small scale BYB, unlike the mill the parents live in the house and the breeder "means well" but like the mill, the parents have had no health screening and no history is known about the grandparents ect... that puppy would likely cost me in the $500-$900 range, but again the health risks are there, and i have no warentee, no contract, and the breeders knowledge is limited...
i could go with a larger scale BYB whos cashing in on the breeds popularity...i dont get any of the bonuses of a good breeder, the dogs are kept in kennels, and because this breeder is in it for money im also looking at $1200-$1500. no contracts, no warentee, no breeder support...
or even better i could go to the pet store, who bought the puppy form the miller above for about $400, i get all the 'benefits" of a mill puppy, whos now also been around puppies form other mills, handled by dozens of people who havent washed their hands between puppies ect...no warentees no contracts, no support...and i get to bay $2000-$3000 plus tax for the privledge!
hmm i think ill go with a good breeder who temperment and health tests their dogs, gives me a long term genetic warentee and a lifetime of support should i have any questions.
there are plenty of GOOD breeders who have a kennel/larger set up, especially in larger breeds, and i have no problem with those breeders as long as the dogs health and temperements arnt suffering for the sake of money...
but puppystores, which lets face it, is the topic in question, are NOT getting their puppies from those situations because breeders who put the time and money into properly testing their dogs wont let their pups go to just anyone...they want to meet the puppy buyer and make sure that the home is a good LIFE LONG home for the life they produced...
puppystores purchese their dogs from brokers, who purchese the puppies from large scale farms where dogs are kept in tiny cages, bred on every heat and puppies are seperated form their dams MUCH too early...
like i said, ive worked at puppystores...ive delt with the brokers...ive also been unlucky enough to see the situations these puppies come from when i did a very short job at lambriar...
Yankeerose - the problem I have with this is that most of the so called "good breeders" are ridiculously expensive. Most people can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on a puppy but that is what most of these places charge particularly when you want a particular breed. When we looked for a dog I saw prices that were unbelieveable (like $2,000+). Maybe that is important for someone into the breeding part of getting a pet but for the average consumer it is way out of line.
Our first dog was from a backyard breeder 18 years ago. He was great and lived 14 years which is above average for his breed. He did have hip problems though they weren't serious until his final year.
Our next dog was from what some would say is a puppy mill. We bought him direct from a farmer who breeds and sells directly. Like I said the place was very clean. The dogs looked well cared for but were definitely there to breed. They were let out on the farm and were played with by children there so they weren't treated horribly from what I saw. We had this one a couple of years now and he is great too.
Our third dog (we currently have two) is the same breed and was given to us as a puppy because the family had very young children, were expecting another and could not keep up with a puppy. He was one of those expensive dogs from a major breeder here in Connecticut. He has a milder disposition than our other dog but I think that has more to do with being the second dog in the pack.
My point is that you do not have to spend $$$$ to get a good dog. They are all wonderful. I do not believe in treating dogs cruelly but I also don't think there is a need to go overboard either. Jay
Jay, I agree that some breeders' prices are nuts. But you can still find responsible breeders with reasonable prices that are no more expensive than you'd find in a pet store. With the really high prices, often you get into champion bloodlines. Yes those dogs get expensive. And then there are some breeders who charge a lot of money because they've created a name for themselves and they can get away with that. But there are plenty of responsible breeders who aren't running puppy mills who offer dogs at what I'll call "market value". Responsible breeder doesn't = big bucks. It simply means how was the dog bred? How do the parents of the dog live? There are plenty of big name breeders who've been busted for running puppy mills themselves, like Hollybelle Maltese was years ago.
Pet store prices are always outrageous, on the other hand, especially for what you are getting in terms of health and breeding. Always a bad choice.
I guess it's just personal preference. Dogs were bred to be with their humans, not live in cages. If I couldn't find a responsible breeder with reasonably priced dogs, I'd just search high and low and find the breed I wanted in a rescue. I don't know where you got your dog so I can't judge.(believe me, I'm not making judgments on your breeder) I mean, if it's just people who own a farm that's not a mill. Were they breeding 10 different kinds of dogs and were those dogs living in cages? I couldn't buy a puppy knowing that its mother is spending most of her life in a cage.
For people who aren't aware, believe me, trust, me, backyard breeders and puppy millers are excellent salespeople. Excellent. They know how to use their kids and make it seem as though they are running a happy little place for dogs. It's when you start asking questions that you can see them getting nervous. They want people to show up, give 'em cash, take the pup and go. And that is usually the kind of buyer they find. A responsible breeder will welcome questions, not squirm with them.
I remember when I worked for animal control, someone had reported a place where they went to buy a puppy thinking the people sold only one breed. They said when they got there, it sounded like there was tons of barking coming from metal sheds in the yard. However, the seller's son was riding his 4 wheeler and the noise was making it hard to hear. They decided to wait. They went back a 2nd time and again the owner's son was on his 4 wheeler. They bought the puppy, but later spoke to another person who bought a dog from these people and they said the same thing. They went out to see the puppies and the son was on his 4 wheeler. (The owner wouldn't let anyone in the house so they conducted the sale outside) It turned out they had about 100 dogs in rabbit type cages stacked on top of each other and they were running a puppy mill out of their yard.
When buyers showed up, they sent junior out on the 4 wheeler to make enough noise that nobody would question why it sounded like 100 dogs barking. They wanted to give the impression of good down home people who just let their dog have pups on occasion.
I know it can be difficult to find certain breeds from rescues and even good breeders. And I don't think a person should have to spend 2k to get a pet. It's just good for people to do research and understand selling tricks of puppy mills and know how to find a good breeder. And from there, all you can do is use your own judgement. Like any other purchase, caveat emptor.
Last edited by Yankeerose00; 01-17-2011 at 09:28 PM..
Hopefully , he was actually more than a month old, because that is way to young to be away from his mother and family. I wouldn't buy from a pet store. There are good breeders around and I know you can find a puppy below that price range. Some even have a 1 to 3 year guarantee on their puppies. Keep searching! And good luck , I love this breed, the Aussie in a smaller package!
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