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mlassoff, GE is insorcing jobs from CHINA to your neighbor, New York. 500 to start. NY did NOT say "We can't".
Huh.. So what? What does this even mean? GE is an American company... What does in-sourcing mean? Actually hiring American employees? GE's headquarters remains in Fairfield, CT. I have no idea what you are saying or how you think this proves your point?
For someone who is always screaming about taxation and say how that retards business, you completely undermine your point by pointing out that New York which has a similar (if not more severe) taxation and regulation structure is landing new companies.
And by the way.... GE is not strictly and manufacturing company...
26yr old, working in Stamford, living in Norwalk (for now) here.
Grew up in CT, left for college, came back to be closer to family again and it feels like "home" here.
Very tight job market here for someone my age with not much experience out of college. Felt lucky to get the job in Stamford in financial services. The cost of living is outrageous and quite depressing. Whatever I make just goes out the door in rent/living expenses; and I think I get paid fairly/decently.
My point of view is give me job security, and lower cost of living.
I can find things to do on my own (enjoy outdoors, go to NYC for more entertainment options, go on vacations) but I need to save more money to do all that. And if you're with good people, you can have a good time anywhere.
Biggest issue for me is to reduce the cost of living. Things would be a lot easier and a lot more attractive here.
Otherwise... yeah... the idea of moving to another region does float around in my head every so often. Why go through this grind at this price?
Actually, these days I believe GE's "headquarters" is at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave....At least that's where Jeff Immelt seems to spend the majority of his time!
Most people don't understand the fundamental importance of home grown manufacturing.
Based on my observation, manufacturing is the only source of real (vs. virtual) economic profit. It makes tangible things that can be exported at a profit, so that people outside the state send money TO the state, where mom and pop and employees spend it locally. The profit is a net gain.
Second, manufacturing is the only thing that hones the skills of those STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) workers we hear about, and in whose development this country ranks #43 worldwide. Little point in learning science and engineering if there are no jobs here with which to make a living. Those are hard skills, in contrast to reading books and writing book reports. They justifiably command higher salaries, which cannot be earned in a service economy.
So, where do the majority of CT workers get their spending money? Low paid service jobs in big box stores, in call centers, or running models in financial services (granted, these are higher paid).
In the box stores, the receipts are swept out every night back to the home office. Now, the economic profit goes OUT of the state. What's left are $12/hour wages that retain NO economic profit, which get circulated around to other big box stores (Shop-Rite, Home Depot) and swept out of state again. What's left of that goes to the tax man (to support the unions, who also make nothing exportable, INCLUDING teachers who are nowhere near as good as their boosters would have you believe). What's left of THAT goes to rent or a mortgage. Pity the poor joe with a mortgage, median house price in CT is $450K, in contrast to $160K nationwide. The remaining pennies go to insurance salesmen, nail salon, beauty parlor, veterinarian, lawyer (CT is in the top five for civil lawsuits), day care... not a high wage base.
As for the 'financial services' jobs: any job requiring only a desk and a computer can be outsourced, and most have been and will be (buh-bye, entry level CT jobs!). In a diversified economy, there used to be somewhere for the desk jockey to move up , or at least around to improve his skilz. Now, he or she can move to another desk job, get a customer service job, or (CT's grand prize) a state employee job.
Taxes are the symptom. What they support is the problem. CT's one growth industry is the entitlement class, who make a steady subsistence wage from unquestioned Title 8, AFDC, food stamps, and drug dealing. The greater this class grows, the more agencies (steady union jobs) are needed to support them. Hence, public sector jobs have metastasized as well. At this point, there is no area of life for the CT citizen that is free from regulation and oversight, all the better to justify the union jobs and the heavy taxation. The entitlement class, and the crimes they commit out of boredom, makes ALL of CT's cities hostile to normal human discourse. The taxes to support them, and their unionized handlers, makes every aspect of CT life suffocating.
In sum, CT is a closed system with a $12/hour economy. Chasing out manufacturing chased out vitality. What you are left with is a monoculture - a crushing bureaucracy and a resentful "gimme" class. College grads are making the right decision by leaving.
PS - I left for a state that's in the Top 10 on the Beacon Index. Amazingly, it's not the freedom from taxes that makes this place so invigorating. It's the safety, and the freedom from an oppressive regulatory environment in my personal life (forms to fill out, permissions to ask, approvals to seek, fees to pay), that increases the energy in the air. Since I am a STEM, and did not leave with my CT nose in the air, I had choices. I have lived and worked in a number of places. From my perspective, unless you are employed by the state, or getting a check from the state, IT'S BETTER ANYWHERE ELSE.
Most people don't understand the fundamental importance of home grown manufacturing.
Based on my observation, manufacturing is the only source of real (vs. virtual) economic profit. It makes tangible things that can be exported at a profit, so that people outside the state send money TO the state, where mom and pop and employees spend it locally. The profit is a net gain.
So if software were developed here and sold worldwide money doesn't come back to the state? If through R & D new drugs are developed here, money doesn't come back to the state? I have to disagree with your observation. There are plenty of intangibles that bring back money to the state. Does Amazon not generate huge revenues from ebooks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_sm1th73
Second, manufacturing is the only thing that hones the skills of those STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) workers we hear about, and in whose development this country ranks #43 worldwide. Little point in learning science and engineering if there are no jobs here with which to make a living. Those are hard skills, in contrast to reading books and writing book reports. They justifiably command higher salaries, which cannot be earned in a service economy.
Tech, R&D, etc also challenge and require STEMS. Manufacturing requires much more unskilled labor than STEMS. If you look at drug research, software development, almost the entire staffing is STEMS, so I don't understand this claim at all either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_sm1th73
So, where do the majority of CT workers get their spending money? Low paid service jobs in big box stores, in call centers, or running models in financial services (granted, these are higher paid).
I think you are confusing Connecticut and Texas. You are completely misinformed. Connecticut has loads of workers in aerospace, maritime, insurance, etc... It's not a state with a bunch of bartenders and waitresses giving each other tips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_sm1th73
In the box stores, the receipts are swept out every night back to the home office. Now, the economic profit goes OUT of the state. What's left are $12/hour wages that retain NO economic profit, which get circulated around to other big box stores (Shop-Rite, Home Depot) and swept out of state again. What's left of that goes to the tax man (to support the unions, who also make nothing exportable, INCLUDING teachers who are nowhere near as good as their boosters would have you believe). What's left of THAT goes to rent or a mortgage. Pity the poor joe with a mortgage, median house price in CT is $450K, in contrast to $160K nationwide. The remaining pennies go to insurance salesmen, nail salon, beauty parlor, veterinarian, lawyer (CT is in the top five for civil lawsuits), day care... not a high wage base.
I agree with this, but this is hardly a Connecticut phenomenon. As for unions, lots of large manufacturing jobs are unionized.... Which is why auto workers aren't making $12 an hour like the big box store employees. This is a complete contradiction in your argument. And as far as teachers go, we have many, many excellent teachers in Connecticut. It seems you want high paying jobs for you and your industry, but no one else... Teachers are paid fairly in Connecticut for what they do... And there are many excellent ones.
You want to pity the poor Joe, but you want to take away his union? Seems like you want to enrich yourself at poor Joe's expense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_sm1th73
As for the 'financial services' jobs: any job requiring only a desk and a computer can be outsourced, and most have been and will be (buh-bye, entry level CT jobs!). In a diversified economy, there used to be somewhere for the desk jockey to move up , or at least around to improve his skilz. Now, he or she can move to another desk job, get a customer service job, or (CT's grand prize) a state employee job.
I don't know much about financial services, but I haven't seen any trader jobs outsources and doubt they ever will be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_sm1th73
Taxes are the symptom. What they support is the problem. CT's one growth industry is the entitlement class, who make a steady subsistence wage from unquestioned Title 8, AFDC, food stamps, and drug dealing. The greater this class grows, the more agencies (steady union jobs) are needed to support them. Hence, public sector jobs have metastasized as well. At this point, there is no area of life for the CT citizen that is free from regulation and oversight, all the better to justify the union jobs and the heavy taxation. The entitlement class, and the crimes they commit out of boredom, makes ALL of CT's cities hostile to normal human discourse. The taxes to support them, and their unionized handlers, makes every aspect of CT life suffocating.
In sum, CT is a closed system with a $12/hour economy. Chasing out manufacturing chased out vitality. What you are left with is a monoculture - a crushing bureaucracy and a resentful "gimme" class. College grads are making the right decision by leaving.
PS - I left for a state that's in the Top 10 on the Beacon Index. Amazingly, it's not the freedom from taxes that makes this place so invigorating. It's the safety, and the freedom from an oppressive regulatory environment in my personal life (forms to fill out, permissions to ask, approvals to seek, fees to pay), that increases the energy in the air. Since I am a STEM, and did not leave with my CT nose in the air, I had choices. I have lived and worked in a number of places. From my perspective, unless you are employed by the state, or getting a check from the state, IT'S BETTER ANYWHERE ELSE.
This is one of the most erroneous, misinformed (not to mention mean-spirited) posts I have seen.
What creates energy in Austin is the excitement over new ideas coming to fruition, the camaraderie shared by "STEMS" and creatives over collaborating and learning...
I moved from Texas to Connecticut and have seen my company really take off here. (Granted I server clients world-wide)
In essence it's not manufacturing that is required to drive the economy here or anywhere. Austin, which is frequently cited as a model for these kinds of municipal economies, has ZERO manufacturing.
Actually, these days I believe GE's "headquarters" is at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave....At least that's where Jeff Immelt seems to spend the majority of his time!
LOL.
I thought you wanted a more pro-business president? Sounds like he's moving in the right direction if what you say is true.
Oh, for pete's sake. You don't HAVE to level the countryside. CT STILL has plenty of solid brick manufacturing buildings smack dab in the middle of towns that used to be safe and walkable when people had MANUFACTURING JOBS TO GO TO. Naugatuck, Ansonia, Derby, Waterbury, Newtown - all of those towns have shells which USED TO HOUSE THRIVING MANUFACTURING, and were built with heavy equipment in mind.
You do NOT want to build ANYTHING from the ground up that requires structural integrity and load bearing. The yahoo "developers" who threw up cr*pshacks at the lowest possible cost and the highest possible profit during the bubble DO NOT HAVE COMMERCIAL GRADE CONSTRUCTION ABILITY. THEY CAN'T DO THE MATH. Further, they lack the ethic to learn it, having been poisoned by EZ money and the convenience of having their Kiwanis buddies inspect and rubber stamp their shoddy materials and construction in the residential market during the runup.
It is more cost effective, and less of a liability, to take advantage of these buildings that WERE built with structural integrity in mind, and to refit them. You'd have to import a Japanese General Supe, and provide him with armed guards 24/7 to protect him from the union goons who are used to the EZ money. I have seen the underside of CT construction, have been to dinner with developers who brag about how thin they can cut the corners. NOT ONE OF THEM HAD EVEN BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TO CALCULATE LATERAL STRESS. For the cr*pshacks they threw up for residential, they never learned it, and they only had to warranty the shack for a year. Having made a killing running up the prices, they're not about to start learning now - 'twould be an affront to their manly pride.
I have witnessed the panicked excuses - repurposing old manufacturing buildings would be "unsafe", PERIOD. That's a frank admission, and shorthand for "I don't know how to do the calculations and I'm afraid of a lawsuit". They simply have no idea about how to run the numbers. People in CT are willing to put up with this because they have been rendered, as sheep, not to question their elected or appointed authorities!
Floormats for my car from Weather Tech: $100
Floormats for my car from Walmart: $25
And if you can't see the difference in product between that Chinese sh*t and what you get from Weather Tech you're blind. People are buying his product because it's not Chinese sh*t.
Get it? We can manufacture here. We CAN manufacture quality products that people will buy and will support decent wages. Italy and Germany do.
I actually paid a premium for a ride on excavator toy for my son because it was made in Germany. The quality is fantastic, it works like it's supposed to and it won't break in 2 weeks. I had it with the Chinese crap and there was no US option.
What do you think the future of America is...data programming? Please, the Asians already blew that market out. Products like iPhones? Made in China.
What do you think is driving all those modern Chinese cities and creating such wealth in their country? The tech sector? Software? Hell no, it's manufacturing. They take raw materials and turn it into something of value...and sell it to us.
Look around your apartment and see just how much of what you have is made in China. Go ahead. That's your money going to a foreign land.
BTW Trump thinks China is a problem for us as well...I guess you've got better business acumen than him.
Here you go buddy, this is what manufacturing has built in China:
Yes, but the manufacturing will NOT come back here because they don't want to pay good, solid wages, good benefits etc. They want to pay a Chinese guy $3 a day to maximize the pay of the CEO and return to stockholders. We cannot, and should not compete with this. We should be preparing for an economy where we can lead, not race to the bottom.
Again, I wish it would let me rep you, couldn't have put it better myself. Excellent post!
Oh, for pete's sake. You don't HAVE to level the countryside. CT STILL has plenty of solid brick manufacturing buildings smack dab in the middle of towns that used to be safe and walkable when people had MANUFACTURING JOBS TO GO TO. Naugatuck, Ansonia, Derby, Waterbury, Newtown - all of those towns have shells which USED TO HOUSE THRIVING MANUFACTURING, and were built with heavy equipment in mind.
You do NOT want to build ANYTHING from the ground up that requires structural integrity and load bearing. The yahoo "developers" who threw up cr*pshacks at the lowest possible cost and the highest possible profit during the bubble DO NOT HAVE COMMERCIAL GRADE CONSTRUCTION ABILITY. THEY CAN'T DO THE MATH. Further, they lack the ethic to learn it, having been poisoned by EZ money and the convenience of having their Kiwanis buddies inspect and rubber stamp their shoddy materials and construction in the residential market during the runup.
It is more cost effective, and less of a liability, to take advantage of these buildings that WERE built with structural integrity in mind, and to refit them. You'd have to import a Japanese General Supe, and provide him with armed guards 24/7 to protect him from the union goons who are used to the EZ money. I have seen the underside of CT construction, have been to dinner with developers who brag about how thin they can cut the corners. NOT ONE OF THEM HAD EVEN BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TO CALCULATE LATERAL STRESS. For the cr*pshacks they threw up for residential, they never learned it, and they only had to warranty the shack for a year. Having made a killing running up the prices, they're not about to start learning now - 'twould be an affront to their manly pride.
I have witnessed the panicked excuses - repurposing old manufacturing buildings would be "unsafe", PERIOD. That's a frank admission, and shorthand for "I don't know how to do the calculations and I'm afraid of a lawsuit". They simply have no idea about how to run the numbers. People in CT are willing to put up with this because they have been rendered, as sheep, not to question their elected or appointed authorities!
I have no idea what you're talking about. Most of those buildings you speak fondly of are contaminated to high heaven. I'm talking mercury and other heavy metals, synthetic polymers that are carcinogenic, asbestos in the ground, oils, even gun powder. It isn't "union-thugs" its' lawyers and accountants telling corps "you'd be crazy." Yes, there was a time where goons threatened protection money, but they weren't always "union."
If the state changed the liability laws, which is in the process of happening as we speak, there actually is solid demand for that space for a myriad of uses. Some of that might be manufacturing, but mostly specialty demand and that sort. Beyond that, manufacturing isn't the only value added work and to say that is baffling.
All,
I'm exactly the type the legislators want to keep: I'm fairly young, graduated UConn (an obligatory "Go Huskies!" is required by law), into the "culture" here (art shows, music events, and all that fun stuff) fairly hard working, etc. I can only speak from my experiences, but I'd like to share.
First off, this problem may have solved itself with the housing crisis. Where there were jobs and we were possibly losing youngings to certainly don't look as appealing as they might have even 4 years ago.
Second, I wonder how having so many students going out of high school and into college for 8+ years changes statistics.
Third, I've known many people that have moved away but mostly in the 'burbs where there wouldn't be apartments even if they tried. Heck, moving from say Wilton to the New Haven area is so much of a change in terms of who you can hang out with when and loss of social ties you might as well just up and go. If there are places to live in the town they grew up in, or adjacent to, they likely stick around.
Fourth, except for the cities housing is pricey and hopefully work can be done to make those cities more of a hub (ehem more cheap research, or even Art, universities ehem) for the young.
Fifth, some people just starting out here are having an issue with first jobs in their field however I think that problem is overblown here and under reported elsewhere (again, from personal stories of many of my friends).
Rarely is the issue taxation or regulation. Most young people don't care. They just don't, and certainly don't make location choices based on that.
Just some thoughts.
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