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Completely agree, JV. I know we disagree on the being born gay thing (I think they are, you think they aren't), but the law is the law.
If this were a public school, then I would have issues with it; but it's not. To each their own.
Exactly. It's really that simple. I guess it's my libertarian streak that says "live your life freely, respect others...even if it makes you uncomfortable. Leave me alone and I'll leave you alone to live your life as you see fit."
People try and turn my mindset into some kind of Fred Phelps madness. I think Phelps is an *sshole who can't admit he's attracted to men and hides behind hateful rhetoric to conceal it.
Why the hell a homosexual would want to be in a Christian school that teaches against homosexuality is a mind bender in itself. That would be like a religious heterosexual going to a gay club and complaining about the "gay friendly" atmosphere. Duh, don't go to a gay bar!
Just curious if this idea extends to race? Could a private school exclude people only because of a stated or assumed race? If no, why is this different? If yes, why should anything along these lines be allowed? Why would form of discrimination be disgusting and the other permissible?
Just curious if this idea extends to race? Could a private school exclude people only because of a stated or assumed race? If no, why is this different? If yes, why should anything along these lines be allowed? Why would form of discrimination be disgusting and the other permissible?
Well for starters as mentioned in this thread, that's the current law of the land in the United States. Race, Nationality, Religion. If someone disagrees with that law, they need to work to change it. If someone disagrees with it at a personal level, perhaps a little tolerance can be shown instead of the very hatred they supposedly have a problem with in the first place.
Having said that, I think you know the answer and are fishing, but I'll play along.
One hinges on genetics (Something you are born with I.E. skin color), and the other on behavior. (instilled at birth or not doesn't change that it's a behavior vs DNA issue such as race.) And yes, some folks are born into a "religion" as it can't really be separated from their race E.G.: Jews. (And the fact that our constitution guarantees religious freedom.)
I'm sure this will bomb out of control from here on out, but I think it's been a reasonable discussion up to this point.
So we went from "OMG did you see what was sent to the employees" as a PSA, to "Well it is sort of bad" to full on support of said hack site.
I think you're a "little" confused. Nowhere in my threads did I say I support "said hack site." I "only" mentioned that we shouldn't forget that Discrimination is Discrimination.
My exact quote was: "While I'm troubled with the nearly pornographic images of the boys and girls on the web site, I spent some time today reading about the school and we shouldn't forget discrimination took place."
I don't see how that can be manufactured into support of "said hack site."
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
There is obviously a debate about homosexuality in this nation. There are many sides to it. It can be debated to no end.
You think being a homosexual is the same as being born black, or a certain gender. There is a solid argument on both sides for and against this. Neither with conclusive "proof". That's your right to believe that however the law is the law.
No where in any of my threads did I mention wanting to get into a "debate about homosexuality." I only said: "If we start accepting discrimination against homosexuality then where does it stop? Black/White - Rich/Poor - Men/Women? Discrimination is Discrimination... period!" I stated a fact! That's all!
You appear to have an issue with homosexuality, and for that all I can say is maybe you should talk to someone about this. I don't care what your opinion is on the subject because it's just that - an opinion. I don't have to agree or disagree with it as it's just an opinion - your opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
Discrimination by law pertains to race, nationality and religion. The first amendment guarantees religious freedom. The constitution also guarantees freedom of association..
Under: LGBT rights in the United States
Twenty-one states plus Washington, D.C. outlaw discrimination based on sexual orientation, and fifteen states plus Washington, D.C. outlaw discrimination based on gender identity or expression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
What you fail to realize is YOU are okay with depriving certain rights of one group to give preference to another.
How you manufactured this thought is beyond me. Maybe if I was drunk, high or intellectually challenged then maybe I could have misconstrue ANY thing I've said to come close to that thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
So now you have the constitution AND the supreme court that differs from your *opinion*. Sinking in yet?.
I NEVER expressed an opinion! "Sinking in yet?" - I believe you have some issues that you should talk to someone about. You've manufactured a lot of nonsense from the little I've had to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
I suppose you are okay with forcing Catholic groups to accept abortion. You also seem to be okay with an all boy school being forced to accept girls and an all girl school to accept boys.
AGAIN - how you manufactured these thoughts is beyond me. Maybe if I was drunk, high or intellectually challenged then maybe I could have misconstrue ANY thing I've said to come close to those thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
If you think throwing bomb words around like homophobe etc makes your point valid you would be mistaken. You came here thinking you were going to put a black eye on a private school, but in return you ironically got an education..
AGAIN - how you manufactured these thought is beyond me. Maybe if I was drunk, high or intellectually challenged then maybe I could have misconstrue ANY thing I've said to come close to those thought.
I didn't come close to saying anything that could possibly be misconstrued to indicate I wanted to put a black eye on a private school. Those are your manufactured thoughts - not mine. I merely posted an email sent to The Master's School that I thought was outrageous due to the images posted on the web site... period. The rest you've manufactured...
You got it...I'm a homophobe and probably a closet f*g, who thinks all gays should be locked up and reeducated...oh, and I should see a shrink about it too because I'm delusional. sigh...
You got it...I'm a homophobe and probably a closet f*g, who thinks all gays should be locked up and reeducated...oh, and I should see a shrink about it too because I'm delusional. sigh...
YOU said it... NOT me... My words - "I believe" were used for a reason...
You got it...I'm a homophobe and probably a closet f*g, who thinks all gays should be locked up and reeducated...oh, and I should see a shrink about it too because I'm delusional. sigh...
Well for starters as mentioned in this thread, that's the current law of the land in the United States. Race, Nationality, Religion. If someone disagrees with that law, they need to work to change it. If someone disagrees with it at a personal level, perhaps a little tolerance can be shown instead of the very hatred they supposedly have a problem with in the first place.
Having said that, I think you know the answer and are fishing, but I'll play along.
One hinges on genetics (Something you are born with I.E. skin color), and the other on behavior. (instilled at birth or not doesn't change that it's a behavior vs DNA issue such as race.) And yes, some folks are born into a "religion" as it can't really be separated from their race E.G.: Jews. (And the fact that our constitution guarantees religious freedom.)
I'm sure this will bomb out of control from here on out, but I think it's been a reasonable discussion up to this point.
Jay-
I am kind of disappointed in your response.
I can assure you, as the overwhelming majority of gay people would, that I did not choose to be homosexual any more than you choose to be heterosexual-- And unless you can convince me that your "choice" is the only thing that prevents you from running out and performing fellatio on the next attractive man who walks by-- I am going to have to say that the argument is old, tired, weak, and all evidence points to the contrary.
So is it that you think I am lying about my own experience with being homosexual (and the overwhelming percentage of gays who say they made no choice to be gay are too)? Or is it that you've run out of logical arguments and now have to cling to more tired ones so as not to cause incongruence with your belief system?
Much research does point to gay being in the DNA for many.
Secondly in many places discrimination (Connecticut is one of then--since 1991) discrimination against people due to their sexuality is illegal... If you want to cling to some interpretation or nuance of the state law that you believe excuses a school from anti-discriminatory practice, it's still just weak.
A homosexual with a professed belief in Christianity should be able to go to a Christian school if that is their choice. Christianity's blind rejection of homosexuality is not comprehensive-- there were 8 separate churches with tables set up at the Pride Festival in Hartford on Saturday.
The fact is, your only argument is that your bias (and the bias of others) against homosexuals and sexuality should be protected by law. And it is. What shouldn't be protected is the ability of an institution --private, public, whatever-- to discriminate or refuse to provide it's services based on sexuality. It's bigotry. It's wrong. It's 2011. Get over it. You're a logical guy. If you divorce yourself from your belief system for a bit and focus on the logical part of your brain, there really is no counter-argument.
I agree with you, but is that necessary? Why insult millions of people because of a troll?
It wasn't the idea...it was tongue in cheek on purpose to show the absurdity of it all. I guess that didn't come across.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlassoff
Jay-
I am kind of disappointed in your response.
I can assure you, as the overwhelming majority of gay people would, that I did not choose to be homosexual any more than you choose to be heterosexual-- And unless you can convince me that your "choice" is the only thing that prevents you from running out and performing fellatio on the next attractive man who walks by-- I am going to have to say that the argument is old, tired, weak, and all evidence points to the contrary.
You are misunderstanding what I was getting at, and not reading into the text I wrote.
One can change their behavior, one can abstain...hetero or homosexual. One can not change their racial makeup.
There IS a difference. Someone can be denied service if they are drunk...behavior. To be denied for color is a different ballgame.
But let me just off the cuff say what *I* believe and you can take it from there however you want.
I have no problem with a gay only club. I have no problem with a hetero only club. I have no problem with a Russian only club. I have no problem with a Italian only club. I have no problem with a black only club. I have no problem with a white only club. If people want to associate in a private setting with members they deem acceptable...that's not only their right, it's their prerogative. I don't have to agree or disagree or associate with said organization. It's a fundamental constitutional right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlassoff
So is it that you think I am lying about my own experience with being homosexual (and the overwhelming percentage of gays who say they made no choice to be gay are too)? Or is it that you've run out of logical arguments and now have to cling to more tired ones so as not to cause incongruence with your belief system?
Mark there are many on the other side who will counter your point who are "not gay" anymore. My wife has a cousin who sleeps with girls one month and decides to sleep with a "hot guy" another month if the mood fits. So who is one to believe? That's why I held balanced view that you can't seem to accept which says there is much debate on the subject on both sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlassoff
Much research does point to gay being in the DNA for many.
Uh huh...well that's a revelation. I personally have not seen any settled science on the matter. Furthermore if it's just "some" how do we now differentiate, give everyone a DNA test?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlassoff
Secondly in many places discrimination (Connecticut is one of then--since 1991) discrimination against people due to their sexuality is illegal...
And the supreme court ruled against such a law in NJ and said the right of free association overrules that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlassoff
A homosexual with a professed belief in Christianity should be able to go to a Christian school if that is their choice.
And that's exactly what this student could do. What is stopping her from finding a "gay friendly" Christian school? It's a private school, Mark. I'm not going to say it's okay for you or anyone else to take away their constitutionaly protected freedom of religion. Period. Find another school that lines up with your ideology. THIS private school does not. It's simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlassoff
The fact is, your only argument is that your bias (and the bias of others) against homosexuals and sexuality should be protected by law. And it is. What shouldn't be protected is the ability of an institution --private, public, whatever-- to discriminate or refuse to provide it's services based on sexuality. It's bigotry.
Are you now suggesting we force all churches to perform homosexual weddings? You are way off base here. I sure as hell can refuse to service you or anyone else with my company. It's my right as a private individual. When you get religion involved that adds some pretty heavy weight behind it.
How would you like to be forced to accommodate Fred Phelps in one of your private social settings/organizations?
I don't understand why you are so staunch about your particular "rights" but are so flippant about others. Be consistent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlassoff
It's wrong. It's 2011. Get over it. You're a logical guy. If you divorce yourself from your belief system for a bit and focus on the logical part of your brain, there really is no counter-argument.
One can change their behavior, one can abstain...hetero or homosexual. One can not change their racial makeup.
There IS a difference. Someone can be denied service if they are drunk...behavior. To be denied for color is a different ballgame.
Homosexuality is an orientation, not an activity. You can't abstain from who you are attracted too. Sex is the act. Absurd, ridiculous and further discriminatory. The gay's should abstain to meet your "moral" expectations-- but you-- ehh-- do what you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
I have no problem with a gay only club. I have no problem with a hetero only club. I have no problem with a Russian only club. I have no problem with a Italian only club. I have no problem with a black only club. I have no problem with a white only club. If people want to associate in a private setting with members they deem acceptable...that's not only their right, it's their prerogative. I don't have to agree or disagree or associate with said organization.
Except there are no "gay only" clubs. Any gay organization I know of would and do take straight members. The Jewish community enter has 20% non-Jewish membership. I went to breakfast at an Irish Social Club around St. Patrick's Day. That's right, you don't have to agree or disagree. It's not about you. It's about equality. Everyone is allowed in regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, ethnic origin or handicap. I'm a member of the Hartford Area Black Data Processing Professionals. They gladly had me. I've spoken at their events.... They didn't tell me to stay out cause I am white.
You want to protect some interpreted right to discriminate... It's not there. Doesn't exist. Jews can go to Fairfield Prep. Non-Jews can go to the Christian Day school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
It's a fundamental constitutional right.
So's equal protection under the law. I guess you only use the Constitution when you interpret it favorably for your position...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
Mark there are many on the other side who will counter your point who are "not gay" anymore. My wife has a cousin who sleeps with girls one month and decides to sleep with a "hot guy" another month if the mood fits. So who is one to believe? That's why I held balanced view that you can't seem to accept which says there is much debate on the subject on both sides.
No, there really aren't many "cured" gays. Very, very, very few. It's not at all an argument that sexuality is a choice. Your wife's cousin sounds bisexual... No huge mystery there. Do you think your wife's counsin's experience with being attracted to both men and women represents "choice?" Do you think it invalidates the experience of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of gays... and millions and millions of straight people-- who said their sexuality isn't a choice...
Again, I ask, when did you choose to be straight? Where is the think line where you could simply decide to go homo next week?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
Are you now suggesting we force all churches to perform homosexual weddings?
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
You are way off base here. I sure as hell can refuse to service you or anyone else with my company.
In Connecticut not because they are black, from Ecuador,old, a women, in a wheelchair or gay. If you do you are breaking the law. If you'd like to be able to refuse service to people based on factors of race, gender, age, ethnic origin, handicap or sexuality, you might enjoy running a business in Iran.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
How would you like to be forced to accommodate Fred Phelps in one of your private social settings/organizations?
Fred Phelps is accommodated to the absolute limits of constitutionality and sanity. It's interesting that you so easily compare those who want the right to love, with those who exercise the right to hate...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
I don't understand why you are so staunch about your particular "rights" but are so flippant about others. Be consistent.
You don't have a right to discriminate against me and other gay people. Sorry.
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