[JayCT]

Originally Posted by jxzz

I think tracks between Stamford and NYC are owned by Amtrak, Tracks between Stamford and New Haven are owned by CT government. This is big difference. CT nor NY has any sole say between NYC/Stamford. Amtrak is the final decision maker.

I can’t speak for the New York section but the section of railroad tracks in Greenwich are owned by the State of Connecticut. Amtrak does own the tracks east of New Haven and the Hartford line. But not any from New Haven to the New York State line. Jay

[BugsyPal]

New Haven RR was in and out of bankruptcy court a few times during its history.


In 1968 the (again) weak NH RR was forced by federal government (Interstate Commerce Commission) to merge into the doomed Penn-Central RR. The latter having been created by the recent merger of two famous but arch enemy railroads the Pennsylvania and New York Central.


Penn-Central went spectacularly bankrupt in 1970 (the largest corporate bankruptcy in US history at that time), so bits of the NH ROW were acquired by four separate entities; State of New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts and Amtrak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yo...tford_Railroad


State governments wanted/needed to preserve commuter service that the New Haven, PRR, New York Central and many other private RRs provided. Amtrak was created to absorb interstate passenger service in part because (IIRC) Conrail wanted nothing to do with it, preferring to concentrate on freight.


For the record there once was another more inland RR ROW between Boston and New York that ran through Connecticut; the Airline Railroad which was part of the New Haven.


http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewt...f=126&t=162627


http://www.courant.com/outdoors/hc-n...104-story.html


IIRC Amtrak studied the possibility of reactivating part or all of the former Airline RR ROW to provide HSR (or any rail service) that would bypass the congested, and twisting current ROW that hugs the CT coast. It was determined rebuilding the ROW to handle modern trains at speed much less high would just be too costly, so that was that.

[BugsyPal]

Originally Posted by JD_MD

Maybe it would make sense to dedicate 1-2 express trains (not full length trains, i.e., fewer cars) from NH to GCT each morning and evening. On a recent trip into NYC, I took the 8:49 am train out of West Haven and when it arrived every car already had a ton of passengers on it and it was a full length train. Doing this would make it more feasible to commute from points north and east of New Haven. Those same passengers would be more likely to take those trains rather than the local trains. It will probably never happen and doesn't solve the problem of the tracks being outdated and the speeds too slow.

One of reasons for the New Haven's financial difficulties by the 1950's was the fact they only ran express commuter service twice per day. The service never paid for itself nor brought in enough revenue to provide for ROW and other infrastructure maintenance. That was with the NH owning entire ROW right down to near the Hell's Gate Bridge. Thus they had control over what trains got priority. Not so much today.


NEC is very busy between Amtrak, commuter and other train service. Would have to research but don't believe there are many if any sidings that would allow a slower train to "get off" the tracks so a faster express could over take. Thus scheduling any such "express" service might prove a nightmare, especially if it runs during peak periods.

[jxzz]

Originally Posted by BugsyPal

One of reasons for the New Haven's financial difficulties by the 1950's was the fact they only ran express commuter service twice per day. The service never paid for itself nor brought in enough revenue to provide for ROW and other infrastructure maintenance. That was with the NH owning entire ROW right down to near the Hell's Gate Bridge. Thus they had control over what trains got priority. Not so much today.


NEC is very busy between Amtrak, commuter and other train service. Would have to research but don't believe there are many if any sidings that would allow a slower train to "get off" the tracks so a faster express could over take. Thus scheduling any such "express" service might prove a nightmare, especially if it runs during peak periods.

Expess vs slow train of metro North already exist today between Stamford and grand central. I think at peak already at full capacity. For those take trains between Stamford and GCT , very few check schedule, they know the next train at peak is 5 to 10 minutes away.

[BugsyPal]

Originally Posted by jxzz

Expess vs slow train of metro North already exist today between Stamford and grand central. I think at peak already at full capacity. For those take trains between Stamford and GCT , very few check schedule, they know the next train at peak is 5 to 10 minutes away.

Stand corrected, totally forgot a good part of NH ROW is still four tracks (two each way) allowing for express service.


MN does seem to start many express trains at intermediate stops and they are also shorter; that could explain why they are "packed".

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by jxzz

I think tracks between Stamford and NYC are owned by Amtrak, Tracks between Stamford and New Haven are owned by CT government. This is big difference. CT nor NY has any sole say between NYC/Stamford. Amtrak is the final decision maker.

CT tracks on the New Haven main line and branches. CDOT owns track west of Shoreline Junction (I'm guessing that's just east of New Haven?) while Amtrak owns track east of that. Past the state line into New York, MTA owns the track to Grand Central in NYS that the main line runs on and Amtrak owns the tracks that go into Hell's Gate Bridge and Penn Station, which New Haven Line trains may eventually go into. Amtrak is the decision maker, but NYS and MTA just recently entered an agreement for usage of those tracks.

There are two-track sections of the line that splits after New Rochelle that Amtrak currently uses, but Amtrak doesn't run that packed of a schedule even during peak hours along that route.

Electrified double-tracked routes are usually able to swing 26 trains per hour and that portion is not anywhere near that frequency now though having to run express and local trains reduces that depending on how long the shared express / local tracks are and if there are any passing sidings (are any of the proposed Bronx stops going to get four tracked)?

There's got to be some agency or institution that's tried to calculate this, but I haven't found a source. RPA has a report, but it either goes into too much detail or too little. It seems like capacity-wise for track and terminal berths there can be more train runs at peak hours along the Main Line, but I simply can't find a source that gives a definitive yes or a definitive no that lists out why.

[BugsyPal]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

CT tracks on the New Haven main line and branches. CDOT owns track west of Shoreline Junction (I'm guessing that's just east of New Haven?) while Amtrak owns track east of that. Past the state line into New York, MTA owns the track to Grand Central in NYS that the main line runs on and Amtrak owns the tracks that go into Hell's Gate Bridge and Penn Station, which New Haven Line trains may eventually go into. Amtrak is the decision maker, but NYS and MTA just recently entered an agreement for usage of those tracks.

There are two-track sections of the line that splits after New Rochelle that Amtrak currently uses, but Amtrak doesn't run that packed of a schedule even during peak hours along that route.

Electrified double-tracked routes are usually able to swing 26 trains per hour and that portion is not anywhere near that frequency now though having to run express and local trains reduces that depending on how long the shared express / local tracks are and if there are any passing sidings (are any of the proposed Bronx stops going to get four tracked)?

There's got to be some agency or institution that's tried to calculate this, but I haven't found a source. RPA has a report, but it either goes into too much detail or too little. It seems like capacity-wise for track and terminal berths there can be more train runs at peak hours along the Main Line, but I simply can't find a source that gives a definitive yes or a definitive no that lists out why.

Asking ain't getting.




Just as Amtrak doesn't always get what it wants from private (usually freight) railroads when it comes to operating over their tracks, they have every right to decide who or what runs over their own ROW.


The Staggers Act does give RRs some assistance getting onto another's RR ROW, but it isn't carte blanche.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staggers_Rail_Act


To research matters deeply you *may* have to look at or for contracts between the New Haven and New York Central regarding track rights. That is to see if anything survived the Penn-Central merger and subsequent forcing of NH into that hot mess, and also creation of Amtrak, Metro North, etc...

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by BugsyPal

Asking ain't getting.




Just as Amtrak doesn't always get what it wants from private (usually freight) railroads when it comes to operating over their tracks, they have every right to decide who or what runs over their own ROW.


The Staggers Act does give RRs some assistance getting onto another's RR ROW, but it isn't carte blanche.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staggers_Rail_Act


To research matters deeply you *may* have to look at or for contracts between the New Haven and New York Central regarding track rights. That is to see if anything survived the Penn-Central merger and subsequent forcing of NH into that hot mess, and also creation of Amtrak, Metro North, etc...

I'm trying to see what the effects of that are for what we're talking about. The deal for New Haven Line trains to run across the Amtrak portion of the line is brokered. The New Haven Line's route in CT is owned by CDOT and in NYS aside from the new Penn Station Access route is owned by NYS. There's not any part of this that is in contention right now then. If New Haven Line keeps its slots in Grand Central, CDOT and MTA owns the tracks leading up to the split to Penn Station via Hell's Gate, and an agreement has been brokered between Amtrak and NYS and MTA, then doesn't that mean the main line is cleared for more trains running into the city and thus more service along CT cities for the main line? The only crinkles I can see in this if there's a technical capacity issue somewhere, a budget/ridership issue in running more runs overall, or MTA having negotiated all potential slack from shifting New Haven Line capacity on the express tracks in the current peak schedule for additional Harlem Line service.