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I make about $52000/year and I have a degree. Tie that in with working 9 hour days and a crappy high deductible insurance my job just changed to. I can barely afford to keep my children insured at this point.
Jviello, excellent post. So much truth to what you are saying.
Quote:
The problem is, we are not stupid and when we see the state population remain flat, yet the governement budget increases 200% (4 billion to over 16 billion in two decades!) we know something is wrong.
Exactly. We need gov't in our lives. What we don't need is the quantity of gov't that exists and we don't need to be paying them double what the same job would make in the private sector. Nobody is saying pay them less than the private sector. How about paying them what the job is worth? It would certainly bring down the cost of living for everyone, including those state/town workers.
It really irked me when I would meet people in Florida who were enjoying their bloated pension and talking about how happy they were they left, CT, NJ, or NY. Take the money and run. Nice.
If pensions must be so high, they should at least have to stay within the state or take a lesser pension if they move out of state. (ducks tomatoes)
so the guys that were in grade school and being teased of "your gonna be a garbage man", now are making more money than most people that have a degree. i would take 4 hrs of manual labor 5 days a week for a equal to greater paycheck of someone with a degree sitting at a desk.
YankeeRose:
i couldnt agree with you more on that. i am currently visiting FL and a majority of people that live here are from the NorthEast.
Thats a $31000 difference. I guarantee you the average pay of a the private sector is at least $31000 higher than the public sector. Also keep in mind that public sector employees have to remain with that government for their entire career to reap those benefits in most instances. Whereas the private sector employees may transition laterally and upward in their career.
Your first point used to be true, but isn't any more. In many instances public sector salaries have crept ahead of private sector ones. That's especially true in the last 10 or 15 years.
Your second point isn't completely true, either. At my public sector job in California, you only need to work for 5 years to collect a pension at age 55. Now, granted, you aren't going to get as much as if you worked 20 or 30 years (in my city, the pension maxes out after 30 years, at 75% of highest year's salary), but still....most people in the private sector don't get any kind of defined benefit pension at all, especially at age 55.
I also admit I work in the public sector because I don't want my whole life to revolve around my job. I like my 14 paid holidays, 12 days sick time (I never take that much), pension, etc.
At the same time, I wonder if the pension and other benefits are really going to be sustainable. I am 39 and wonder if I will actually get to collect that pension at 55. I live in California, which has the worst credit rating of all 50 states. And we all live in the US, and our government has been spending like a drunken sailor since around 2001, and that trend has accelerated in recent years. Even in the best of circumstances, it's going to get worse because of ever escalating costs for Medicare & Social Security.
That said, most people in the public sector where I live do put in a decent day's work. The problem is mostly that we're getting paid more per hour of output than a person in the private sector doing the same work. I wish it wasn't true, but it is.
Last edited by mysticaltyger; 03-15-2010 at 10:59 AM..
I also understand that as health insurance rates, utility prices, etc. rise, private businesses have to somehow account for that as well. Maybe that's why no one in my office got raises this year.
I've never said that boated government is a good thing: my entire point is that often times complaints are overblown for ideological, rather than practical, reasons. In some cases the complaint is genuine and action must be taken but even the issues of salaries is murky. Even IF all 30,000 some employees of the State of Connecticut were paid $100,000 per annum with 2.0 million income tax payers, not including sales/lotto/corporate revenue, the bill monthly would wind up round $125/mo per tax payer. Sure it's a lot, but that's how economies of scale work. And the scary thing is that Connecticut is on the slim side when it comes to the number and salary of employment expenditures. While Connecticut may be the worst when it comes to pension capitalisation, there have been quite a few articles in Baron's about how the same concerns about corporate pension funds may be overblown. If this is true extrapolating this to governmental funds too is not so far off. It's an issue, but that's all it is. Something that needs to be decided, with some very tough choices how the government relates to his employees.
The problem you seem to be touching on is not the price of government, but the failure of the private sector to pay accordingly. Something tells me if I complained about some sort of private sector pay that was on the higher side you'd tell me how much they work hard to get there, how they took the opportunity, how needed they are, etc etc. Just a guess though.
A decent days work eh? You mean like working 35 hours a week (that's 7 hours a day in case anyone can't figure it out) with lunch and breaks inbetween and just about every holiday on the calendar off, benefits out the wazoo and 4 weeks vacation a year, double and triple time if you even THINK about working on a weekend, overtime or a holiday.
Come work on a crew like mine, or my wifes center for a day and you'll understand a decent days work. It's at LEAST 42.5 hours (more like 45 average) with no "breaks", half the holidays, health insurance for $500.00 per month, 2 weeks vacation after 2 years, and 70% of state grade pay at best and if you are salary you work those holidays, weekends or late hours for NO EXTRA MONEY or benefits.
I'm on a 14 day straight run at 14 hours a day - no overtime, no "extra". I'm not complaining because it's my choice to do what I do, but it's an example of the "reality" for some of us out there.
If this is your vision of what a hard day's work ought to be, you can count me out! This notion that it's admirable to sacrifice ourselves to our jobs is completely bonkers, and it's almost impossible to live that way and be a well-rounded human being.
I've worked jobs where I was regularly expected to pull 12+ hour days. At one of them, I think my longest-ever shift was 17 hours straight with no break. (And lest you claim that I'm talking about pushing pencils at a desk, these were skilled technical jobs that involved a fair amount of manual labor.) I made more money back then than I ever have since.
And you know what? That job sucked, and that existence sucked. It was all essentially meaningless, and despite the extra cash, I hated my life. It left me with no time to do any of the things that I'd consider worthwhile, or spend any real time with the people that mattered to me. My boss was a joyless workaholic whose basic motto was "You can never do enough! You can never work hard enough!". This went both for himself and for his employees -- the concept of "morale" seemed utterly foreign to him -- and I watched his family life and marriage wither on the vine because of it.
(Your post reminds me of his ethic, and of working at that literally thankless job. I hope you show your employees more appreciation and understanding than he did; I've hardly ever met a boss who treats his employees better than he treats himself, and it doesn't sound like you treat yourself that well at all.)
The first scenario you describe with ill-disguised disdain is pretty much the norm in Europe. They've figured out that people work harder, smarter, and better when they get room to breathe -- and that the thing that defines a "decent day's work" isn't in how many hours you log, but in what and how much you accomplish (in quantity or quality). Taking breaks, having days off, not working crazy hours -- these things keep people fresh, and help them do better work.
Oddly enough, their society hasn't collapsed into a welter of laziness and corruption; quite the contrary, they seem a hell of a lot happier, and in many fields the Europeans are outperforming the U.S. No matter where you live, people who are really great at what they do, and who have longevity in their profession, figure out how to work smarter, rather than longer; the alternative is burnout.
I know being a small business owner is demanding, and I don't begrudge you your right to do what you do. But it's dangerous to claim moral high ground on this stuff based on the hours you log or the sacrifices you make. It turns into an arms race that no one can ever win, yourself included, because to win it means losing everything else: your health, your sanity, your family life, or all of the above. Somewhere there's a Chinese factory worker who's pulling longer, harder hours than either of us have ever done: but is theirs really a model we want our society to emulate? I think not.
(I'm not going to deal with the rest of your post, some of which I'm sympathetic to, some of which I vehemently disagree with...though I do have to say, I wonder how someone like Dwight Eisenhower would react to your bold claim that "Government is a parasite, it makes nothing, sells nothing - it only consumes.")
About time some people on this don't have myopic, obtuse intellect and can not question anything. When has government created a job? They take from the people then pay for services with half of the money getting lost in between.
I've been reading this for a few days without replying and I feel like my head is going to explode reading all the bullcrap from some of the clueless state employees.
So, lets break it down a bit with a dose of reality shall we?
A decent days work eh? You mean like working 35 hours a week (that's 7 hours a day in case anyone can't figure it out) with lunch and breaks inbetween and just about every holiday on the calendar off, benefits out the wazoo and 4 weeks vacation a year, double and triple time if you even THINK about working on a weekend, overtime or a holiday.
Come work on a crew like mine, or my wifes center for a day and you'll understand a decent days work. It's at LEAST 42.5 hours (more like 45 average) with no "breaks", half the holidays, health insurance for $500.00 per month, 2 weeks vacation after 2 years, and 70% of state grade pay at best and if you are salary you work those holidays, weekends or late hours for NO EXTRA MONEY or benefits.
I'm on a 14 day straight run at 14 hours a day - no overtime, no "extra". I'm not complaining because it's my choice to do what I do, but it's an example of the "reality" for some of us out there.
Since I'm on a roll, lets look at some "state" jobs that are so "underpaid" and the people are "overworked".
How about this one:
Clerk Typist: $15.68 per hour. You know how much this job would pay in the private sector? Go to Manpower and see what they pay for data entry $8.50-10.00 per hour. Reality Check 2
Head Clerk. $52,000 per year. For a CLERK? Are you kidding me! Well maybe it requires an advanced degree or special knowledge. Mmm, NOPE.
EXAMPLE OF DUTIES: Coordinates office workflow; determines priorities, schedules, assigns, oversees and review work; establishes and maintains office procedures provide staff training and assistance; conducts or assists in conducting performance evaluations; maintains or oversees maintenance of office records and logs; acts as liaison with operating units, agencies and outside officials; perform a range of clerical procedures which may include such things as processing, reception, filing, record-keeping, performs other related duties as required.
MINIMUM QUALIFICATIONS: Knowledge of office systems and procedures ability to perform full range of clerical tasks; interpersonal skills; oral and written communications skills; ability to schedule and prioritize workflow; ability to operate office equipment which may include personal computers, ability to read, understand and apply a variety of materials.
EXPERIENCE AND TRAINING: General Experience – Three (3) years of general clerical experience. Special Experience – One (1) years of the General Experience must have involved a full range of general clerical duties as an Office Assistant or its equivalent.
What do you think a management "trainee" at say Enterprise makes? I'll tell you, about 30K per year and they work about 60 hours week, have a fraction of the benefits and time off.
Our state government is so full of crap no one needs, or wants yet keeps growing it's crazy. That's the problem. Not that we don't need a director of the DOT or a DOT crew...or that we should not have SOME kind of environmental oversight. But we do not need 14 programs, directors assistent directors, clerks, paper shufflers, inspectors etc to go inspect storm drains for micro amounts of something that means nothing.
I mean do we really have to pay someone $72,000 per year with unrealistic benefits to do this:
EXAMPLE OF DUTIES:
Duties may include the following administrative, consultative, and advisory activities:
·Monitor and evaluate programs with the CNP unit;
·Provide oversight and monitoring of the Fresh Fruit and Vegetable Program;
·Assist with the implementation of the Child and Adult Care Food Program (CACFP) Supper Program and other CACFP programs;
·Assist with the development and submission of annual reports related to state and federal regulations; and
·Perform related duties as required.
Moreover, how many "food programs" do we need in this state?
I'll say it again, the problem is not that the "private sector" is "all of a sudden up in arms". The problem is, we are not stupid and when we see the state population remain flat, yet the governement budget increases 200% (4 billion to over 16 billion in two decades!) we know something is wrong.
When we see people getting healthcare for life and retiring with 75-100K pensions (Who then move out of state to avoid taxes. ) We know something is wrong.
When I get my tax liability # from my accountant, I KNOW something is wrong.
STOP GROWING THE GOVERNMENT and acting like it's paying for itself. Government is a parasite, it makes nothing, sells nothing - it only consumes.
Most important eh? I beg to differ that public education is "the most important". Education, yes I can agree. But the public school system is so bloated, indoctrinated and screwed up it's a joke.
But lets answer your question witih a question. What do you think that same teaching position pays in the private sector at a school like The Cornerstone Christian Academy in Manchester? About half.
Morever, in magnet schools in CT that are taking pre-K at the age of 3 (Nothing more than state sponsored daycare. ) are paying teachers that much. ($20-30 per hour, plus benefits etc)
Want to know what a pre-k teacher makes in the private sector? I know because my wife runs a private center.
$10-12 at BEST and that position requires a degree. I think it's disgusting, but it's what the position and costs vs tuition can support. The state just says "more money please" without the please, because they have no concept of profit and loss.
I think we've just seen that it's not true, but I'll recount some personal experiences for you on a town level.
I almost went to work for the DPW in Wallingford. Staring pay for a entry level DPW worker was $17.75 two years ago. That does not include the overtime during the Winter months that averages that number to about $22.00. Not bad for a entry level position, with union backing and gauranteed raises, benefits galore.
I actually worked at the DPW in Windsor Locks for a couple Summers back in my college age days.
Here was our day: 7am, roll in and go to the employee room and get coffee and chat till about 7:45. Head out to the "jobsite" - maybe mowing the ballpark or whatever, get set up and starting working about 8:15. 9:00am, shut it down, get in the town truck and head over to the minimart - our designated "break spot" take a 20 minute break for coffe etc. It's now 9:30, get back to the jobsite and working at 9:45, work about 1.5 hours and break down for lunch at 11:30. Take lunch at 12:00 to 1:00, go back to work at 1:15 and work till 2:15 and take another 15 minute break. Start clean up for the day and get back to the DPW garage at 3pm.
Yea, real productive. I was actually told to "slow down" by the full timers because I was making them look bad.
I am - see above. The problem again is, that we DON'T NEED all of you people to wipe our nose everytime it runs. I say wipe 50% of the state workers off the tit, make the other 50% actually work like we do in the private sector and you won't even notice the loss.
What does state produce to justify those "scientists, nurses, microbiologists, doctors, directors of health etc"? Do you have a product like Pfizer? Do you make turbines like Pratt and G.E.?
No.
We have the highest amount of state workers vs citizens in the country and it and the legacy costs are BREAKING THE BACK of both it's residents AND business.
/rant
(Okay Beeker, drivel on about how good it is to have bloated government. )
I have plenty of clients that are MD's that make less than $130,000 a year and work 60-70 hours a week. They should be cleaning I-95 and making $150,000. Professionals do not get paid OT only union gov't workers.
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) We know something is wrong.
