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Old 03-22-2016, 12:33 AM
mm4
 
5,711 posts, read 3,337,672 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandCityGirl View Post
Regardless, outside of the South (and I suspect to many who are in it), the confederate flag feels like a symbol of divisiveness, white supremacy, and just plain racism. I understand that this is probably not the conscious intention of those who wave it, but it ought to be though about. I should have been more specific: I'm surprised to learn that the South still willingly celebrates/claims a flag that signifies hatred and inequality to so many. Fighting a war to retain the practice of enslaving African-Americans is absolutely nothing to be proud of. I don't care what battle happened where.
If OP doesn't want to be gawked at I suggest he not attend a professional sports venue in Boston, MA from the audience, even today. Accordingly, in many surrounding suburbs, it's still easy for newcomers to get the impression that there are no blacks in the Eastern Mass. region. As recently as the 90s there are conditions like this:

_"Tensions, fear send Cambridge principal fleeing"_
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-8487051.html

And not too long before:
http://www.usnews.com/dims4/USNEWS/a...080405flag.jpg

"Well, when we started up the hill you could hear people saying, "******s, go home." There were signs, they had made a sign saying, "Black people stay out. We don't want any ******s in our school." And there were people on the corners holding bananas like we were apes, monkeys. "Monkeys get out, get them out of our neighborhood. We don't want you in our schools." So at that time it did frighten me somewhat, but I was more determined then to get inside South Boston High School, because of the people that were outside."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/eyesont...r11_bused.html

What it sounds like is you want to erase our history, our celebration of sociopolitical differences, which includes a greater emphasis on individual liberty than found in the North. If the South even has a flag that represents that in abstract, it's tough for you. Were you beside yourself in histrionics in the 1980s when it was on the roof of the General Lee on a popular Big 3 network TV show (or on the cover of a Skynyrd album), or is this a more recent, and contrived, phenomenon?

Last edited by mm4; 03-22-2016 at 01:47 AM..
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:45 AM
mm4
 
5,711 posts, read 3,337,672 times
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And for goodness sake, don't name anything "Dixie...."
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Old 03-22-2016, 07:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX View Post
My dad flies the Star Spangled Banner, the First National flag of the CSA, and two state flags (Illinois and Alabama) in memory of our Union and Confederate ancestors who fought against each other during the siege of Vicksburg. Four of them were killed in action and 1 later died of injuries sustained during combat. I wonder what each group would've thought if they'd have known that one of their great-great grandchildren would marry a descendant of the soldiers firing on them from across the water.
Okay. Clearly I shouldn't have said "no one" would fly the Confederate flag to honor ancestors. But the majority of the time you see a Confederate flag being flown it's for one of the reasons I stated above.
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:07 PM
 
Location: the Permian Basin
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Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
But the majority of the time you see a Confederate flag being flown it's for one of the reasons I stated above.
What evidence can you cite to prove that your claim is not merely conjecture?
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Old 03-24-2016, 08:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX View Post
What evidence can you cite to prove that your claim is not merely conjecture?
My claim is conjecture. I'm thinking in particular of a 20-something guy I know who used to fly a Confederate flag in the back of his truck. He barely graduated from high school, did not appear to be a history scholar and he and his family freely used the N-word. I don't think he was honoring his ancestors by flying the Confederate flag.

When I see the flag, which thankfully is not very often, it generally seems to be in pretty much the same context.
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Old 04-01-2016, 04:11 PM
 
Location: the Permian Basin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
My claim is conjecture. I'm thinking in particular of a 20-something guy I know who used to fly a Confederate flag in the back of his truck. He barely graduated from high school, did not appear to be a history scholar and he and his family freely used the N-word. I don't think he was honoring his ancestors by flying the Confederate flag.

When I see the flag, which thankfully is not very often, it generally seems to be in pretty much the same context.
I'm guessing that you're not from the South. Down here - especially in the states that saw lots of battles - the battle flag represents history & heritage, not hatred.

Unfortunately, it has been hijacked by racists / xenophobes like the KKK and neo-Nazi skinheads, and also by rebellious teenage knuckleheads who don't understand and appreciate history but instead view the CBF as a symbol of rebellion.
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX View Post
I'm guessing that you're not from the South. Down here - especially in the states that saw lots of battles - the battle flag represents history & heritage, not hatred.

Unfortunately, it has been hijacked by racists / xenophobes like the KKK and neo-Nazi skinheads, and also by rebellious teenage knuckleheads who don't understand and appreciate history but instead view the CBF as a symbol of rebellion.
I'm from Corpus Christi and have lived here most of my life. I know that occasionally someone flies a CBF as a symbol of history and heritage. But as you acknowledge, the symbol has been hijacked by racists and xenophobes. When I see a CBF on the back of a windshield or flying from the back of a truck, my first thought is not, "Look how proud those people are of their great-great-great grandfather who fought in the Civil War." Rather, it's "Look at that silly redneck."

On the flip side of that, I find the movement to remove statues and other permanent Civil War monuments from university campuses, etc. to be reactionary and short-sighted, but very typical of the times we live in. It's instructive to learn that views of situations change with the times. A person can see a memorial statue, learn why it was erected and disagree with the sentiment without coming to any harm. But these days everyone has to have a side and defend it at all costs. The ability to see the other side of an argument has been all but lost, as has the ability to disagree without being disagreeable.
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:25 AM
 
200 posts, read 131,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
I'm from Corpus Christi and have lived here most of my life. I know that occasionally someone flies a CBF as a symbol of history and heritage. But as you acknowledge, the symbol has been hijacked by racists and xenophobes. When I see a CBF on the back of a windshield or flying from the back of a truck, my first thought is not, "Look how proud those people are of their great-great-great grandfather who fought in the Civil War." Rather, it's "Look at that silly redneck."

On the flip side of that, I find the movement to remove statues and other permanent Civil War monuments from university campuses, etc. to be reactionary and short-sighted, but very typical of the times we live in. It's instructive to learn that views of situations change with the times. A person can see a memorial statue, learn why it was erected and disagree with the sentiment without coming to any harm. But these days everyone has to have a side and defend it at all costs. The ability to see the other side of an argument has been all but lost, as has the ability to disagree without being disagreeable.

When you suggest that the Confederate leaders' statues (and Woodrow Wilson) remain on University campuses, you are merely assuming that ALL people can learn something from viewing these statues. I think that a sizable number of University students (like white fraternity and sorority members) might view these statues as an affirmation of their racist heritage/birthright and give them cover to exclude others who don't look like themselves. That is why they should be removed.
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:31 PM
 
15,246 posts, read 17,629,619 times
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Originally Posted by wheatpenny View Post
When you suggest that the Confederate leaders' statues (and Woodrow Wilson) remain on University campuses, you are merely assuming that ALL people can learn something from viewing these statues. I think that a sizable number of University students (like white fraternity and sorority members) might view these statues as an affirmation of their racist heritage/birthright and give them cover to exclude others who don't look like themselves. That is why they should be removed.
I think you're making a lot of assumptions without much to back them up.

And you're right, I do think that ALL people can learn something from viewing the statues or learning the history.

History is history--no matter how ugly it is. Pretending like it didn't happen, or more importantly, pretending like some people aren't proud of what the losing side stood for, tells an incomplete story. I believe that we need to see it all and understand what motivated decisions that were made and actions that were taken.
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:11 PM
 
Location: the Permian Basin
4,200 posts, read 3,336,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
I'm from Corpus Christi and have lived here most of my life. I know that occasionally someone flies a CBF as a symbol of history and heritage. But as you acknowledge, the symbol has been hijacked by racists and xenophobes. When I see a CBF on the back of a windshield or flying from the back of a truck, my first thought is not, "Look how proud those people are of their great-great-great grandfather who fought in the Civil War." Rather, it's "Look at that silly redneck."
A fellow Corpus Christian, huh? Cool.

Whenever I see a vehicle (or house) with a CBF, I evaluate the vehicle (house) and its driver, that way I can make a presumption, rather than an assumption, about the motivation of the person displaying the flag. Making an assumption about someone based on mere speculation seems a bit like prejudice to me, and prejudice is something that should be overcome, not perpetuated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
On the flip side of that, I find the movement to remove statues and other permanent Civil War monuments from university campuses, etc. to be reactionary and short-sighted, but very typical of the times we live in. It's instructive to learn that views of situations change with the times. A person can see a memorial statue, learn why it was erected and disagree with the sentiment without coming to any harm. But these days everyone has to have a side and defend it at all costs. The ability to see the other side of an argument has been all but lost, as has the ability to disagree without being disagreeable.
Well said. I agree 100%.
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