Prejudice/racism in South Texas (Jefferson: homes, to live in, vs)

[IslandCityGirl]

Originally Posted by mm4

What it sounds like is you want to erase our history, our celebration of sociopolitical differences, which includes a greater emphasis on individual liberty than found in the North. If the South even has a flag that represents that in abstract, it's tough for you. Were you beside yourself in histrionics in the 1980s when it was on the roof of the General Lee on a popular Big 3 network TV show (or on the cover of a Skynyrd album), or is this a more recent, and contrived, phenomenon?

Erase our history?! Not at all. Fewer things are more important for a society's progress than well-remembering history, continually learning from past mistakes and misjudgments (and successes, of course), and thusly making decisions that prevent their repetitions.

Flying a flag (pretty universally known as a way of displaying what one stands behind, takes pride in, and values) is not the same as "remembering history." Again, as I already stated in a previous post, I understand that the conscious intention of many who wave the Confederate flag is not to be divisive or to alienate, but it stands up to logical reason that waving a flag (an illustration of pride and implied values in what the flag represents) that represents an attempt to continue the practice of slavery, is misguided. You can see how easily this would be the perception of those who are not stuck on some idea that it's okay to stand behind such a symbol because great-great-grandpappy was a brave soldier, or the like. All of that said, I am new here, and the "flag culture" in and of itself (flags being waved from truck mirrors, golf carts, front doors, tents on the beach.... And not just one flag, but three or four each. This doesn't happen in other places with which I'm more familiar...) is something that I'm still learning about here.

It's interesting how different perceptions about individual liberty - and what that means - can be. I suppose that's why this becomes an impossible argument, a micro-representation of our country's continual partisan impasse and vehement disagreement. You think the South illustrates a greater emphasis on individual liberty (while exercising your right to fly a flag that represents fighting for slavery), and yet countless others will claim the opposite. I can think of at least a dozen good friends who transplanted from the South to the Seattle area, grateful to be relieved of what they perceived as judgementalism and blatant prejudice, experienced in Southern culture. I'm not speaking scientifically one way or the other. It's just worth noting the discrepancy.

Originally Posted by Marlow

I'm from Corpus Christi and have lived here most of my life. I know that occasionally someone flies a CBF as a symbol of history and heritage. But as you acknowledge, the symbol has been hijacked by racists and xenophobes. When I see a CBF on the back of a windshield or flying from the back of a truck, my first thought is not, "Look how proud those people are of their great-great-great grandfather who fought in the Civil War." Rather, it's "Look at that silly redneck."

On the flip side of that, I find the movement to remove statues and other permanent Civil War monuments from university campuses, etc. to be reactionary and short-sighted, but very typical of the times we live in. It's instructive to learn that views of situations change with the times. A person can see a memorial statue, learn why it was erected and disagree with the sentiment without coming to any harm. But these days everyone has to have a side and defend it at all costs. The ability to see the other side of an argument has been all but lost, as has the ability to disagree without being disagreeable.

Well said, Marlow. I agree with your post completely.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

A fellow Corpus Christian, huh? Cool.

Whenever I see a vehicle (or house) with a CBF, I evaluate the vehicle (house) and its driver, that way I can make a presumption, rather than an assumption, about the motivation of the person displaying the flag. Making an assumption about someone based on mere speculation seems a bit like prejudice to me, and prejudice is something that should be overcome, not perpetuated.
.

Slowpoke, how is a "presumption" different/better than an "assumption?" You are running down rabbit holes and splitting hairs, here. Jumping to a conclusion based on what a person or car looks like as somehow more accurate or scientific than just jumping to a conclusion, period, is ridiculous by any measure. The point is, waving a flag is a way of showing pride in what represents you, your values, your beliefs, and this is how such a symbol is widely perceived. That ought to be taken into consideration.

[Slowpoke_TX]

Originally Posted by IslandCityGirl

Slowpoke, how is a "presumption" different/better than an "assumption?"

"To presume is to make an informed guess based on reasonable evidence, while to assume is to make a guess based on little or no evidence."
Assume vs. presume - Grammarist

In other words, to presume is to make an educated guess, while to assume is to make a WAG.

Originally Posted by IslandCityGirl

Jumping to a conclusion based on what a person or car looks like as somehow more accurate or scientific than just jumping to a conclusion, period, is ridiculous by any measure.

It's bound to be more accurate than jumping to a conclusion based solely upon one's own preconceived notions. Of course, the best way to ascertain someone's beliefs and motivations is by talking with them, but that's not always possible especially in the case of flags displayed on moving vehicles.

Originally Posted by IslandCityGirl

The point is, waving a flag is a way of showing pride in what represents you, your values, your beliefs, and this is how such a symbol is widely perceived. That ought to be taken into consideration.

Well of course - a person wouldn't display a flag unless it meant something to them. The problem comes when others project their own (mis)perception of a flag onto the person displaying said flag.

[IslandCityGirl]

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

"To presume is to make an informed guess based on reasonable evidence, while to assume is to make a guess based on little or no evidence."
Assume vs. presume - Grammarist

In other words, to presume is to make an educated guess, while to assume is to make a WAG.




It's bound to be more accurate than jumping to a conclusion based solely upon one's own preconceived notions. Of course, the best way to ascertain someone's beliefs and motivations is by talking with them, but that's not always possible especially in the case of flags displayed on moving vehicles.



Well of course - a person wouldn't display a flag unless it meant something to them. The problem comes when others project their own (mis)perception of a flag onto the person displaying said flag.

If you actually read my post, you would know that I don't need the vocabulary lesson, but thanks. I made the distinction between definitions pretty clearly known.

While I'm tempted try to go into detail and give all kinds of examples to be thoroughly understood, I'm sensing your definitions of logic, fairness, and critical, objective thought are just plain different than mine. We are at a cliche impasse, so we'll let this thread speak for itself, and it will.

My final reiteration: I'm am confounded at your ability to tell yourself that you ought to be able to judge people based on their appearance (or that such a thing is even acceptable), but how dare I draw similar conclusions based on whether they wave a FLAG THAT BLATANTLY REPRESENTS AN EFFORT TO RETAIN HUMAN SLAVES. If that sentence doesn't compute to you, then we are going to have to agree to disagree.

[Slowpoke_TX]

Originally Posted by IslandCityGirl

My final reiteration: I'm am confounded at your ability to tell yourself that you ought to be able to judge people based on their appearance (or that such a thing is even acceptable), but how dare I draw similar conclusions based on whether they wave a FLAG THAT BLATANTLY REPRESENTS AN EFFORT TO RETAIN HUMAN SLAVES.

And I'm saddened by your willingness to prejudge others after projecting your idea of the flag's meaning onto other people with total disregard for their thoughts, feelings, and motivation. What makes you so sure they all think like you do???


My use of people's appearance and that of their vehicle or house in an attempt to make an educated guess about their use of the flag, while still speculative, falls under "totality of the circumstances."

When a CBF is displayed next to the SCV emblem on the tailgate of a late-model, well maintained Toyota pickup driven by an older, middle-class Hispanic man, that tends to project a different image than when a 5'x7' CBF is flown from a flagpole in the bed of a jacked-up 4WD pickup with loud exhaust driven by a 19 year old white guy with the windows down and Sweet Home Alabama blaring from the radio. It would not be unreasonable to presume that the first man displays the CBF to honor the service (and possible sacrifice) of his Confederate ancestors, nor would it be unreasonable to presume that the second guy flies the flag merely because he wishes to project the image of a rebel.

[brownbagg]

I lived in Corpus, 33 years ago, In fact I went to Del Mar, and A&I. back then, the black population was very low, mainly coast guard and navy personnel. The people of corpus was alway super nice, but it was a total different world from the rest of United States. Its not that they are racist but just a different culture. They wonder about you like you do them, but they are not going change. you have to learn their culture, Their time of the clock.

[wheatpenny]

[quote=brownbagg;43668338]I lived in Corpus, 33 years ago, In fact I went to Del Mar, and A&I. back then, the black population was very low, mainly coast guard and navy personnel. The people of corpus was alway super nice, but it was a total different world from the rest of United States. Its not that they are racist but just a different culture. They wonder about you like you do them, but they are not going change. you have to learn their culture, Their time of the clock.[/quote


Mostly Navy Guard or navy personnel? There were more than that, but most of them lived on the northside of town (The Cut). There were a very few that I knew, but they could be counted on one hand when I was in jr high, there were maybe only 3. When I went to high school, there were more, but not a whole lot. Our high school valedictorian was AA. He's a very successful in-demand engineer now- and gay. Who knew?

[Pincho-toot]

I dunno about South Texas, never been there. I have lived in West Texas, and now North Texas. I haven't seen much racism, sans the occasional ignorant morons. I lived in Abilene and can't even tell you how many interracial couples I saw there. Very welcoming and friendly area. Even in small towns, at least the ones I been to, most people don't care if you're black, or gay, they'll treat you as nice as you'll treat them. But Texas is a big state, don't let this experience in your area ruin what truly is, a very friendly state.

[smarino]

I think it's best to let people fly THEIR flag w/o outsiders telling them what it means. It's not yours, so what makes you entitled to tell others what it means? Sorry, but there's no other way to put it. Regardless of what YOU think it represents, that's only your opinion. Not a fact. Nothing makes me angrier than hearing drivel like this. No Yankee on earth knows what that flag means, yet they are continually spouting their one sided, brain washed, propaganda about it. If I were black it might mean something else, but I'm not, so it really depends on someone's viewpoint, doesn't it?

That flag flew proudly when the Berlin wall came down because it represents rebellion against tyranny. That's why it's called a rebel flag. I'm white and my wife is black, and she sees nothing at all wrong w/ that flag because she is educated, liberal (and I don't mean PC, which is the opposite of liberal), and understands what it means. Yeah, it got co opted by some sorry organizations, but so did that Christian cross, and I don't see people tearing down churches because they have the same symbol on top that the KKK has. That's a great way to get people riled up....going into their place and telling them how they should do things. That has worked real well w/ the relations between Southerners and Yankees, hasn't it? Trust me, I am the most liberal person on the planet. Most of what goes down in the Old South is why I don't live there anymore, and these hate laws that are being passed off as religious freedom laws (Southern sharia laws) are horrendously bigoted and hark back to the bad old days. But enough of these lies about that flag from people who just do not have a clue.

[IslandCityGirl]

Originally Posted by smarino

I think it's best to let people fly THEIR flag w/o outsiders telling them what it means. It's not yours, so what makes you entitled to tell others what it means? Sorry, but there's no other way to put it. Regardless of what YOU think it represents, that's only your opinion. Not a fact. Nothing makes me angrier than hearing drivel like this. No Yankee on earth knows what that flag means, yet they are continually spouting their one sided, brain washed, propaganda about it. If I were black it might mean something else, but I'm not, so it really depends on someone's viewpoint, doesn't it?

That flag flew proudly when the Berlin wall came down because it represents rebellion against tyranny. That's why it's called a rebel flag. I'm white and my wife is black, and she sees nothing at all wrong w/ that flag because she is educated, liberal (and I don't mean PC, which is the opposite of liberal), and understands what it means. Yeah, it got co opted by some sorry organizations, but so did that Christian cross, and I don't see people tearing down churches because they have the same symbol on top that the KKK has. That's a great way to get people riled up....going into their place and telling them how they should do things. That has worked real well w/ the relations between Southerners and Yankees, hasn't it? Trust me, I am the most liberal person on the planet. Most of what goes down in the Old South is why I don't live there anymore, and these hate laws that are being passed off as religious freedom laws (Southern sharia laws) are horrendously bigoted and hark back to the bad old days. But enough of these lies about that flag from people who just do not have a clue.

smarino, I humbly and genuinely appreciate your post and perspective. Thank you! I promise that I do take it to heart and I absolutely appreciate that perspectives around a single symbol can be varying. It's heartening to hear to your perspective and I certainly don't mean to come into someone else's house and tell them what's what. As I've already noted in several other posts, I'm admittedly still sorting through the culture here. I understand that it must incite indignation for an "outsider" to form an opinion about a Southern symbol. I do apologize for that, but I also think it's always good to think about how we are perceived from the outside. I would encourage it. How a message is perceived is just as important as what we mean to say, you know what I mean? We learn this in foreign relations and [especially] in marriage, am I right?

It's hard, personally, to wrap my brain around applying a meaning other than the one the flag was created for (a war against freeing black slaves). In my mind and heart, and in the history books, that horrendous ideal is at the root of the creation of the confederate flag (the idea of it being a generalized "rebel" or anti-tyranny symbol is what the newer, "co-opted" meaning is - though I'm GLAD that it has that new meaning to so many!) and my own perspective has been that applying those newer meanings to it is, at best, forgetful as to how and why the symbol was created. I could apply that same idea to your KKK example. I hope that helps to shed some light on why "outsiders" assume that, at best, a blind eye is being turned toward racial issues when that flag is waved. At worst, it can be perceived as a blatant "eff-you" toward civil rights efforts. I'm sorry that this is often a misperception, but I hope that the reasons make sense.

I understand from this thread that perhaps part of the Southern definition of "individual liberty" is more about me being allowed to do what I want, regardless of how that affects others, as opposed to ensuring that others have the same fair shake I do, even if that means I make some personal sacrifices to give others that opportunity. In "Yankee" territory, individual liberty means an equal and fair chance for everyone, meaning we do make sacrifices as individuals to promote equal freedoms for others, when necessary. Those two different definitions of individual liberty definitely create an understanding gap between cultures. All of that said, I appreciate and respect the spirit in which you describe the confederate flag being used. I truly mean that. I also love that you point out the vast difference between being liberal and PC. Definitely truth! Thanks for the genuinely thoughtful insight. It did not fall on deaf ears, I promise you that. Cheers!

[sheiladekam]

Cool perspective Marlow and Island City Girl on curiosity and actually answered some questions I had about Seattle too haha