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Oh double crap I just DM'd a mod. I had no idea. No more posting links after a double shift on pm's and noc's. It fries the brain too much.
I'm terrified of Ebola. Very few of us in health care aren't. Lets hope it doesn't get out of control.
55 or so years ago I used to work in lab where we had people working with messy stuff. My group did not per se...but we did work with blood and in vivo experiments. Got a bit testy when our lab tech came down with TB...which was being worked with a floor below. And we were not exactly clean citizens...we were doing chemical sterilization of wet equipment with gas and were ejecting the gas eventually into the the good old NY atmosphere. Pumped it through a piece of 1/4 inch tygon tubing to the roof and then off to the gods.
Never even killed one of our sheep. So it was not too bad.
Oh double crap I just DM'd a mod. I had no idea. No more posting links after a double shift on pm's and noc's. It fries the brain too much.
I'm terrified of Ebola. Very few of us in health care aren't. Lets hope it doesn't get out of control.
Fair enough. As long as you don't try to blame the whole mess on caregivers or afflicted victims, I'm right there with you and will hold your hand every step of the way.
Location: 23.7 million to 162 million miles North of Venus
23,451 posts, read 12,487,658 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscuitmom
Not entirely opposed to this but see all kinds of problems considering most US volunteers there are members of and sponsored by religious organizations.
Plus from what I've read, "a few" of anything won't make much of a dent overall.
I don't know what difference it makes that some, many, or most, of the US volunteers are members of and sponsored by religious organizations as to flying them in and out of W. Africa and moving them around within those areas. Even if they are members/sponsored by religious orgs., while in that country they are still subject to the direction of the US ambassador to that country (by direction of the President and consistent with U.S. law).
If each (willing) countries military sends a few jets, etc., in, then a few from each becomes many overall.
Laymen do not get to use a different definition of airborne when talking about Ebola. There is no excuse for failing to understand the scientific definition and the difference between droplet or aerosol transmission and airborne transmission. When polled, 90% of a group of Americans believed that Ebola is airborne. They think they can catch it just walking around. People have started wearing masks out in public, for goodness sake. It's not a mere inconsequential semantic difference. <(This is what I was trying to convey to you. People consider anything traveling through the air to be airborn)
The quarantine and monitoring process is based on degree of risk. Low risk contacts are monitored, high risk are quarantined. People on airplanes with asymptomatic patients are low risk and are monitored. Some of those have voluntarily quarantined themselves.
People with high risk exposure - close, unprotected contact with someone with symptoms - are quarantined.
It is fine to be concerned, but at least base concern on reality, no just horror movie gut reaction.
I understand why bans will not work and are far more likely to make the situation worse. Bans would restrict not only flights leaving the affected areas but flights coming in. People would not want to enter the country and not be able to get out. That affects a lot of jobs. If people cannot feed their families, they will walk out of the affected countries. There is a great big ocean to the west, so they would head east, infecting more countries. We have to do something to make it possible for people to get medical care in their home countries and not die from starvation in the process. That will prevent them from feeling pressure to leave.
I have also said I do not believe the Consulates in the affected countries are issuing visas for travel to the US without heavy scrutiny. There is no reason for low risk persons with legitimate reasons to travel not to be able to do so. For example, the town for the Firestone Plantation has a population of about 80,000. It had access to resources and contained the outbreak. Why should people living and working there not be allowed to fly?
No, I am not concerned about getting Ebola. I do not work in an ER. I do not plan to be on an Ebola treatment team. I know I will not catch it just walking down the street.
The fiasco at Texas Presbyterian happened because proper procedures were not used, not because the procedures were ineffective. What that teaches us is that the CDC cannot assume that infectious disease experts in an given US hospital are able to follow procedures that have been in place for decades in Africa. That is why future victims, if any, will be treated at one of the Level 4 centers. An advantage we have here is that we can afford better PPE. People still have to learn how to put it on and how to take it off. Any American hospital should now be able to recognize a potential Ebola victim and safely quarantine him until such a transfer can be accomplished. It's just a matter of doing it.
I think, IMHO, you have been traveling around too many Ebola threads protecting the nation, as you obviously think it your duty, from what you deem as unofficial, horror movie gut reaction of concerns and worried uneducated people, to tell people what they can and cannot think based on your opinion of what you've read. First of all, good luck with that and I predict you will be getting into lots of great heated arguments with others.
Seeing your claws are starting to come out on the issue and what you deem as the correct information, I will stop with this; you can't really tell people what they are allowed to consider given the information they have gathered on their own, and if they do perceive it to contain the truth that is their opinion to have, so it's a moot. You can try, but you are subject to mistakes when the experts you quote admit to them publicly.
There will always be conversations involving "what if's" in situations without all the answers, it's human nature. Try as you will, there isn't anything you can really accomplish acting like you hold all the answers to the Ebola crisis. Opinions differ, and yes, you're giving an opinion, the opinion that you agree with what you've researched and read about Ebola based on the limited science they have and the fact that viruses are ever changing. That's all it is.
Second; I'm close friends with ER nurses, and they will be dealing with this if it comes our way, not me. A lot of people share their concern, including the president of nursing in my state and many others.
As usual, with my attempt to convey peoples feelings about Ebola being "airborn" there is nothing you can do about that. They hear droplets can travel through the air and reach their face within a certain distance of an infected patient, they hear "airborn" enough for concern. It might not follow the technical term for airborn but it's a concern non the less for your average person. I think patience and proof through time with this threat will be what convinces them, not you.
You can be as technical as you'd like, you can even demand as you've done to me that I cannot state that people perceive this as "airborn" but you are only going to exhaust yourself. You aren't an authority on Ebola, you've only stayed at a Holiday Inn and think by quoting some medical research that we've all seen and that you admire is enough to warrant this. You are just like the rest of us on here.
Third; I take offense to you blaming the nurses for their exposure, they got Ebola because they were caring for a foreign patient we let into our country who handled an ill person from an infected area of that country. It was just a shock to a local hospital that happened to wander into their hospital. How on earth could they be prepared for this?
But, in my opinion which I have every right to share, the CDC had places prepared, and got the call that they had an Ebola patient at a local TX hospital and left him there. That is a fail to me and telling me it isn't or that I cannot say it will not change my mind one bit. I'm quite frankly surprised as a nurse you would even suggest anything close.
Now that people were concerned about how they handled the first foreign case, they have a better plan. Before that it was unimaginable....
Good luck on here with that attitude. I'll try to avoid your punches. I understand you're passion for setting the record straight with your opinion of what expert advice you think the public should follow from the Ebola experts. Been there, done that with you. I just don't think you allow for others perception of the advice or their belief that those experts know what they are talking about.
Sometimes people have to see for themselves, this is a new threat, it's understandable to me, which was my point from the beginning. If it isn't to you, there is nothing I can say to change your opinion. I get that and good luck. Now that they've merged all the threads it should be less time consuming.
Oh double crap I just DM'd a mod. I had no idea. No more posting links after a double shift on pm's and noc's. It fries the brain too much.
I'm terrified of Ebola. Very few of us in health care aren't. Lets hope it doesn't get out of control.
I totally get it, so are my friends. Some have even considered quitting. It's a new threat, it's understandable. The pilots I know have their own concerns as well, like what to do in mid air if a passenger starts to throw up as it happens often. Protocol in this new environment is changing and it's hard to deal with. Hopefully it gets better.
Barring a breakthrough in treatment like a vaccine the only way to treat it is as a big video game.
Spreadsheets, Gantt and Pert charts are really the only hope, other than pulling out and letting nature take its course. And you win this battle when the spread sheet numbers start dropping off.
The problem is getting the numbers to put in the spreadsheet. No one knows exactly how many people are infected.
It looks like one starting point for the chart should be: bribe the local medicine man to change the burial rituals. Firestone Plantation did that.
Right up there with it: provide meat alternatives to bats and chimps.
Recruit survivors to help take care of patients. Pay them.
Screen local populations for people who may have had asymptomatic infections and may be immune. Recruit them to help take care of patients. Pay them.
Get real PPE into the field.
Biggest of all: help enough people to recover that folks understand that if you have Ebola and you go into the big American tent you come out alive. Then there is less incentive for them to leave. Educate, beginning with tribal elders.
Give the vaccine makers what they need to get the vaccine out into the field, including the infrastructure to transport, store, and distribute it. Vaccinate health care workers first.
I think, IMHO, you have been traveling around too many Ebola threads protecting the nation, as you obviously think it your duty, from what you deem as unofficial, horror movie gut reaction of concerns and worried uneducated people, to tell people what they can and cannot think based on your opinion of what you've read. First of all, good luck with that and I predict you will be getting into lots of great heated arguments with others.
Seeing your claws are starting to come out on the issue and what you deem as the correct information, I will stop with this; you can't really tell people what they are allowed to consider given the information they have gathered on their own, and if they do perceive it to contain the truth that is their opinion to have, so it's a moot. You can try, but you are subject to mistakes when the experts you quote admit to them publicly.
There will always be conversations involving "what if's" in situations without all the answers, it's human nature. Try as you will, there isn't anything you can really accomplish acting like you hold all the answers to the Ebola crisis. Opinions differ, and yes, you're giving an opinion, the opinion that you agree with what you've researched and read about Ebola based on the limited science they have and the fact that viruses are ever changing. That's all it is.
This comes close to an ad hominem, but I will respond anyway. If people are so frightened that Ebola is "airborne" that they are wearing masks on the street in the USA I will continue to try to educate them that Ebola does not spread that way. You may think it is all right for misinformation to be repeated ad nauseum. I do not. I will continue to supply facts, supported by science. You are entitled to your opinion. Fine. You still do not get to make up your own facts.
Quote:
Second; I'm close friends with ER nurses, and they will be dealing with this if it comes our way, not me. A lot of people share their concern, including the president of nursing in my state and many others.
As usual, with my attempt to convey peoples feelings about Ebola being "airborn" there is nothing you can do about that. They hear droplets can travel through the air and reach their face within a certain distance of an infected patient, they hear "airborn" enough for concern. It might not follow the technical term for airborn but it's a concern non the less for your average person. I think patience and proof through time with this threat will be what convinces them, not you.
You can be as technical as you'd like, you can even demand as you've done to me that I cannot state that people perceive this as "airborn" but you are only going to exhaust yourself. You aren't an authority on Ebola, you've only stayed at a Holiday Inn and think by quoting some medical research that we've all seen and that you admire is enough to warrant this. You are just like the rest of us on here.
Do you not think that helping a person understand the difference between standing next to a person with Ebola and being exposed to droplets versus standing on the sidewalk breathing the air outside a hospital in which an Ebola patient is treated might not be a way to allay some anxiety?
Instead of accepting that the average person cannot understand the concept, why not continue to provide education that Ebola is not airborne and that the lives of every person in the country are not at risk because Ebola patients are being treated in this country?
Quote:
Third; I take offense to you blaming the nurses for their exposure, they got Ebola because they were caring for a foreign patient we let into our country who handled an ill person from an infected area of that country. It was just a shock to a local hospital that happened to wander into their hospital. How on earth could they be prepared for this?
But, in my opinion which I have every right to share, the CDC had places prepared, and got the call that they had an Ebola patient at a local TX hospital and left him there. That is a fail to me and telling me it isn't or that I cannot say it will not change my mind one bit. I'm quite frankly surprised as a nurse you would even suggest anything close.
Please provide a link to a post in which I blame a nurse. I have said all along that I feel that a breach in PPE is responsible for the two nurses becoming infected. It appears Ms. Pham at least may have been exposed to Mr. Duncan early in his hospital stay without wearing any PPE at all. That would be a breach. If the gear was inadequate, that would be a breach. If proper training in removal of the gear was not provided, that is a breach. All of those things are explanations for why the nurses got sick. It is not "blaming" them for doing something wrong. The only nursing error I have specifically addressed is the nurse on the first ER visit who did not follow the red flag warning about Mr. Duncan having traveled from Africa. She should have verbally given that information to the doctor and she did not, which she admits, because she did not understand the significance. Perhaps you have mistaken me for one of the posters saying Ms. Vincent was stupid and needs to be arrested. That was other posters, not me.
I have also quite clearly stated that I believe the majority of the "blame" for the situation at Texas Presbyterian falls on Texas Presbyterian. The CDC is being "blamed" for a lot of the failures of the hospital, and ultimately the buck at the hospital most likely stops with an infectious disease physician. Maybe not. For all I know, there were decisions made by administrative nurses, too.
I am not a nurse, but I know many, including my sister-in-law, who is a retired orthopedic surgical nurse. I have personally been cared for by some great nurses.
Quote:
Now that people were concerned about how they handled the first foreign case, they have a better plan. Before that it was unimaginable....
Good luck on here with that attitude. I'll try to avoid your punches. I understand you're passion for setting the record straight with your opinion of what expert advice you think the public should follow from the Ebola experts. Been there, done that with you. I just don't think you allow for others perception of the advice or their belief that those experts know what they are talking about.
I think the original ER visit was not grossly mishandled. Mr. Duncan contributed significantly to his misdiagnosis by not being straightforward about his history. That is not "blaming" the victim. It's a statement of fact. I have some reservations about the people who made decisions at Texas Presbyterian after Duncan was admitted. I believe the CDC was perhaps naive to think Texas Presbyterian could handle it. I believe that there could have been better communication between Texas Presbyterian and the CDC. I think the experts know what they are doing, but Texas Presbyterian did a poor job of utilizing that expertise.
I'll continue to present the facts about Ebola as I find them. Sorry you seem to be so threatened by that.
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Texas Presbyterian letter to the community
