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but is it really? a speeding person is theoretically actively endangering lives while a person selling drugs is giving people a choice to take something that may have a negative impact on their lives. while i understand that today drug dealing is seen as something worthy of a no knock raid with machine guns and grenades, logically it doesnt seem to make sense.
NOR DOES IT TO ME!
Kudos to the government for turning 90% of the population into people who are exceedingly concerned with what everyone else is putting in their bodies, and who think drug-taking and drug-creating and drug-selling are some kind of beyond-all hideous crimes. Knocked it out of the park. Very effective.
but is it really? a speeding person is theoretically actively endangering lives while a person selling drugs is giving people a choice to take something that may have a negative impact on their lives. while i understand that today drug dealing is seen as something worthy of a no knock raid with machine guns and grenades, logically it doesnt seem to make sense.
You have a point. Speeding like drugs has different levels. Driving a few miles over the limit seem pretty much benign but a high speed chase thru a neighborhood or congested highway is more serious becaue the risk to others is greater. You have to also agree that selling drugs to addicts theoretically endangers lives as well while personal recreational drug use may be harmless.
Kudos to the government for turning 90% of the population into people who are exceedingly concerned with what everyone else is putting in their bodies, and who think drug-taking and drug-creating and drug-selling are some kind of beyond-all hideous crimes.
I think those who care are made up mostly of thoes whose lives have been negatively impacted by drugs in one way or another. If you haven't been negatively exposed I doubt you give it another thought.
I think those who care are made up mostly of thoes whose lives have been negatively impacted by drugs in one way or another. If you haven't been negatively exposed I doubt you give it another thought.
Indeed, the ills of drug use are beyond calculation, even with our best efforts.
I know people in jail, in nursing homes, and in premature graves as a result of drug use.
Sure the dopers will always try to compare it with alcohol consumption or other ills, as if that somehow changes the fact that doing drugs has adverse effects on society.
Laws, especially those with long histories are typically based on trying to dissuade or encourage behaviors that benefit society.
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ speeding is illegal also, if we are speeding with our kids in the car do we risk cops ramming our car off the road or opening fire on us?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
I get where your coming from. You don't think drug use should be illegal and you believe the laws and penalties and tactics used to enforce drug laws are over the top and I cant say I disagree but your reply is just being obtuse. We all understand there are different levels of illegal. A seeding ticket is different than dealing drugs. Actually if a person known for vehicular homicide and having weapons was speeding to the point of negligent endangerment and the cops were not aware of there being kids in the car they might actually ram your car or open fire.
Just playing devils advocate here...but I can't resist. Using your analogy of speeding vs dealing drugs, which activity offers a much more immediate danger to you and those around you ? Speeding down the street at 50 mph in a 30 mph zone, or selling an illegal drug in a little baggie on your front porch or the street corner ?
Well one might say, yes, but the illegal substance ( an illegal drug in this case) can result in a dangerous situation (death) for the person eventually taking the drug, as well as those around him/her. Ok....very true. So if that's the case, perhaps buying gasoline should be illegal since ALL speeders and reckless drivers buy gasoline before being able to perpetuate their dangerous habit of endangering others on the highway by reckless driving/speeding. After all, gasoline is the substance that allows all manner of dangerous things to happen on the highway....thousands are killed annually by irresponsible drivers on the highway by speeding cars hitting one another or pedestrians. Therefore, gasoline is bad !
Obviously this was written "tongue in cheek", but none the less, is anything I said untrue ? Sometimes we need to look at things differently because looking at them in the same way for to long blinds us to potentially productive changes in our thinking.
Laws, especially those with long histories are typically based on trying to dissuade or encourage behaviors that benefit society.
i consider myself conservative and one aspect is that i like things to move slowly in the right direction. i dont need full legalization now. for one thing, i dont think we should be treating these offenses with such aggressive measures both in apprehending people or incarcerating them. so modifying the penalties would be one big step in the right direction. you could also legalize some drugs and not others. you could regulate the sale and production, etc. etc. etc. i dont love that but its movement in the right direction.
maybe we do go full freedom and maybe not. but we can definitely make important changes quickly to help reduce criminality and move towards improvement over time. its not worth people getting killed to arrest someone selling drugs. its not worth having felonies on people's records for using/selling drugs, etc.
oh and i dont use drugs, never have. i also dont know somebody who has had their life ruined by drugs (know plenty who have used/use drugs without their lives being ruined). but i do get that point.
Indeed, the ills of drug use are beyond calculation...
The ills of the war 'against' drugs far exceed the ills of drug use. In fact, in addition to all of its own ills, the approach of this war 'against' drugs only serves to increase the ills of drug use itself, while lending very little in the way of information, harm reduction, help, compassion, or research. It is despicable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1
Laws, especially those with long histories are typically based on trying to dissuade or encourage behaviors that benefit society.
And in this area, the one we're discussing, they work quite poorly. Control, authority, state ownership of individuals and their decisions and their bodies and minds, profiteering, violence. That's what we get. It is time for honesty, self-examination, and a different approach. Or should we just continue this abysmally-failed policy for the next hundred years?
Some of these substances / molecules have a much longer history of responsible, legal, sometimes beneficial usage than the length of their dictatorial prohibition.
Indeed, the ills of drug use are beyond calculation, even with our best efforts.
I know people in jail, in nursing homes, and in premature graves as a result of drug use.
Sure the dopers will always try to compare it with alcohol consumption or other ills, as if that somehow changes the fact that doing drugs has adverse effects on society.
Laws, especially those with long histories are typically based on trying to dissuade or encourage behaviors that benefit society.
But like prohibition, the war on drugs really hasn't been very effective. Most estimates of prohibition peg it at about a 20% reduction in usage of alcohol, and most people would agree prohibition itself caused far more problems than it solved by modestly reducing alcohol consumption.
I've used illegal drugs and was never really that concerned with the legality aspect of it, especially when I was younger. Nowadays I just don't have much interest. It's really easily to get a medical marijuana card, for example, which along with amphetamines were the only thing I used more regularly than just to try it and see what it's like. No interest though today. The laws really don't keep people who want to use from using and people who don't want to use usually have more pressing reasons not to than the legality of it.
I've used illegal drugs and was never really that concerned with the legality aspect of it, especially when I was younger. Nowadays I just don't have much interest. It's really easily to get a medical marijuana card, for example, which along with amphetamines were the only thing I used more regularly than just to try it and see what it's like. No interest though today. The laws really don't keep people who want to use from using and people who don't want to use usually have more pressing reasons not to than the legality of it.
I came to drugs in my late 30s. Up until then, I had used cannabis 11 times between age 16 and age 37, and I had never even tried anything else other than alcohol (the yuckiest of all drugs), tobacco, and caffeine, not even an opioid. I had always thought the Drug War seemed like it didn't work and was kind of atrocious. But in my mid 30s I wanted to know more. I read many books and spent a lot of time perusing bluelight, shroomery, erowid, drugs-forum, and others. I learned a lot, about drugs I thought were interesting and beneficial and about drugs I thought I would not want to take. But I began to understand what these molecules are in a much more thoughtful way, and to really examine our drug policies and how they very rarely help and almost always hurt.
Anyway, I also became convinced through devouring reams of information over the course of a couple of years that trying a tryptamine, a phenethylamine, a dissociative, Salvia, and an empathogen was something I wanted to do. So I did -- legal versions of each, with very carefully selected set and setting, in a controlled environment and responsible manner and for the purpose of finding out what they're about and looking backward and inward at my own "self" and life and world. It was a truly captivating, enlightening, beneficial experience. I am happier, healthier, more motivated, more compassionate, more "in" my own life, and more curious as a result. I only wish I'd done so at a much younger age.
The idea that I did something "wrong" is abundantly laughable to me.
I think the biggest probem with the so-called "war on drugs" is that they are fighting it like a most wars since WWII. The punishment is too light and slow. If you want to intice people to not do drugs make a first offense of possession 10 years hard labor without paroal. Second offence 20 years. Trafficking a mandatory death penalty. What the government is doing is milking it for money. The drug courts are keeping people out and re-offending so they can contnue to collect fines from them. Our country has never decided to try and stop drug use. Only to make it an econimic tool. If it's not worth the sentences I suggested then it's not worth fighting against at all.
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