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Missing the point with those films of guys getting harassed. Guys don't have to worry about the harassment possibly turning violent. They don't feel threatened by the harassment. They don't have to worry about someone possibly following them home to assault them later. If they did a film of a short or scrawny but good-looking guy walking around, and he got harassed and followed by a couple of gay guys a foot taller than he was, making suggestive comments and refusing to leave him alone, that would be the equivalent of what women put up with.
Guy don't have to worry about harassment turning violent?
In what part of what country is that because that is not true in any US city.
You see, the table turns all ways. Every time this kind of topic comes up the comments about how men don't experience harassment in the same way or they don;t have the same issues come up.
It is almost always a woman saying it too. How on earth would they know? Well, if a woman can so easily know how a man experiences harassment then by golly men can know the same about women.
Guy don't have to worry about harassment turning violent?
In what part of what country is that because that is not true in any US city.
You see, the table turns all ways. Every time this kind of topic comes up the comments about how men don't experience harassment in the same way or they don;t have the same issues come up.
It is almost always a woman saying it too. How on earth would they know? Well, if a woman can so easily know how a man experiences harassment then by golly men can know the same about women.
When was the last time we've heard a man here complaining that the woman who catcalls him is making him nervous because he's afraid she'll stalk him or do violence or rape him, based on past experiences with catcalling women, or based on past stories he's heard of violent rapist stalking catcalling women?
Every time I get " harassed" on the street, thankfully it's just with words, a well-intentioned albeit tactless, counter-effective compliment.
So I try to process in my mind how I feel about it.
1) If men seem to adore me so much, why am I alone & single?
2) If men adore me, why don't they slow down & take a moment to be sincere & genuine? THAT'S the way to a woman's heart.
3) So I find cat calls are 25% flattering, 50% cowardly on the men's part, and 25% sickening to me...include their cowardliness to the sickened feeling they give me = 75% sickening.
But it is offensive in OUR culture, the culture of the women who are being catcalled, and these men have to know, or at least should know, that this is the case. They just don't care. Or they think that because they get "success" in some small fraction of the times they do it, that this justifies them doing it, regardless of how many women hate it (and maybe hate them) for doing it.
If I'm in Somalia, I'm sure I would! So I wouldn't go to Somalia, or I'd wear something in Somalia which wouldn't be considered tacky and low-life there. But I'm not in Somalia.
Nor is that video relevant to many parts of the US. Even though I spelled that out for you you are still slow on the uptake. In white , middle class society this does not happen. In the areas that it did, no woman stepped up to do it implying they don't tend to care enough. Many sensible people have tried to inform self described feminists that we are not all one big happy world culture and that includes American sub culture. You mean to say there might be some issues in poor minority neighborhoods? Has nothing to do with men. Has to do with those cultures and the women from alien cultures who just don't get it.
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If catcalling was so ingrained, established and part of normal behavior among most men in the USA, a lot more men here would admit to doing it. But I don't see that happening, do you? So why do those who refuse to fit in with the majority of OUR culture, get a free pass?
Its not. Thought that was clear. Lay off the boose since its not conducive to basic comprehension.
Nor is that video relevant to many parts of the US. Even though I spelled that out for you you are still slow on the uptake. In white , middle class society this does not happen. In the areas that it did, no woman stepped up to do it implying they don't tend to care enough.
No, you're slow on the uptake. These neighborhoods ARE part of our country and part of our culture. This is the USA. You notice how there are those whose native language is not English. But now they're speaking in English. Why is that? If they can adapt enough to learn English, maybe they can adapt enough to stop treating women like this when they know that this is something that these women do not want.
It's just that we've been told to accept it for so long. Women walk through these areas all the time and don't like it. That's why that video was made, and the Daily Show video was made. That's why we women all have stories of being catcalled and we're saying we never liked it. But when we did say something, everyone just shrugged their shoulders. We "allow" people to get away with it in these areas, but now we don't want to "allow" it anymore. Because it's NOT part of the USA culture.
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You mean to say there might be some issues in poor minority neighborhoods? Has nothing to do with men. Has to do with those cultures and the women from alien cultures who just don't get it.
These areas are not exclusively "used" by minority neighborhoods. They are areas where many people must pass, maybe do business, and yet we're told that even though we must go through these neighborhoods, that we somehow don't have a "right" or something to say we don't like how they are. If we never needed to find ourselves in the neighborhood, then we wouldn't care, now would we?
We get what we accept. We don't want to accept this anymore. This isn't a feminist issue. I doubt my very conservative mother would like being talked to like this. Oh, that's right. She didn't like it when she worked in an area where these kinds of guys were and when they talked to her like that, YEARS ago.
It's a Catch-22. We say we don't like it, we're told that we can't complain. We are also told that since "no one" is complaining (and that includes us, the people who regularly work, do business, go to school, pass through on the way to somewhere else) then it's not a problem. But wait, we start to complain, we're told to shut up and we have no right. Then we're reminded that no one is complaining, so there's no problem! And so on and so on.
Nor is that video relevant to many parts of the US. Even though I spelled that out for you you are still slow on the uptake. In white , middle class society this does not happen. In the areas that it did, no woman stepped up to do it implying they don't tend to care enough. Many sensible people have tried to inform self described feminists that we are not all one big happy world culture and that includes American sub culture. You mean to say there might be some issues in poor minority neighborhoods? Has nothing to do with men. Has to do with those cultures and the women from alien cultures who just don't get it.
With the exception of places where teen and 20-something men hang out, or drive past.
But it is offensive in OUR culture, the culture of the women who are being catcalled, and these men have to know, or at least should know, that this is the case. They just don't care. Or they think that because they get "success" in some small fraction of the times they do it, that this justifies them doing it, regardless of how many women hate it (and maybe hate them) for doing it.
No, it's offensive sometimes to some people. You'll notice several women here who like catcalling, generally if it's done more tastefully and by someone they don't find repulsive.
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When we visit or go to other countries, we should be aware of their cultures. We may suffer consequences (being considered crass, low-life, or worse) if we don't. But somehow, that's all thrown out the window when we talk about here in the USA? Suddenly, other cultures doing nasty, crass, and stupid things here is something the rest of us must tolerate?
Again, you're overly rigid in your view of "our culture." America is and has always been a mixing pot. Latino culture or African American culture are very much American culture. They might not be the white bread that you view as your culture.
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I don't care if they catcall women from cultures which expect or like catcalling. But clearly many or most women living here consider it rude, low-class, sleazy and offensive. Saying that it's part of their culture doesn't make us hate it any less.
And again, you demand respect of "our culture," which is really your culture, but are completely unwilling to respect another culture.
MARTIN: So let me ask each of you, does this represent, like, the outer edge of experiences or does this actually feel kind of like a normal day? Jasmine, what about you?
JASMINE GARSD, BYLINE: Well, I think there's a little bit of both. You know, I think there's guys who say, hi, how are you doing or you're looking nice today, which I actually don't have a problem with that. I think that's a beautiful human interaction. But then there's the guys that make you feel embarrassed, humiliated, or just, it's just very aggressive. And that's the line that is crossed that I think makes people very uncomfortable.
MARTIN: Viviana, what about you?
HURTADO: I live in the U Street area of Washington, D.C. and so it's every single day that something like this happens, but it is in perception. And, for example, I've had somebody walk next to me and say, on the street, baby, you look as good as you smell. So he got close enough and I guess I'm glad I hadn't just worked out.
But then, just yesterday when I was walking my dog, I had somebody whistle and say, hey, shorts. There was a very big difference for me between a guy who was dapper and he was in a business suit, and he said, you smell, you know, as good as you look, and then somebody who just didn't even acknowledge that I was anything more than shorts. So that goes to perception as well and intention.
Clearly not all women are going to appreciate having someone walk next to them smelling them and telling them they look as good as they smell. But some do like the complement. It's in the perception. If you don't want the attention, it's catcalling. If you do want the attention, it's a welcome complement. And yes, cultural bias has a big impact on perception. If you come from a culture where complements of that nature are more common (Latino culture), you have a different perception than someone from a Puritan background. So stuff like you look as nice and you smell might be a nice complement to some people and awkward and inappropriate to others.
At any rate, that isn't harassment. It goes on to talk about why women are wary of that sort of directness as harassment may be what follows it.
Missing the point with those films of guys getting harassed. Guys don't have to worry about the harassment possibly turning violent. They don't feel threatened by the harassment. They don't have to worry about someone possibly following them home to assault them later. If they did a film of a short or scrawny but good-looking guy walking around, and he got harassed and followed by a couple of gay guys a foot taller than he was, making suggestive comments and refusing to leave him alone, that would be the equivalent of what women put up with.
Yet men are statistically more often victims of violence than women are. It's way more common for a guy to be attacked by a random guy than a woman getting attacked by a random guy. I worry about homeless people getting violent all the time here in Los Angeles. But I realize that it's a part of life.
The point is. That men(especially if they are good looking) are also objectified by women(and gay men) like a beautiful woman is objectified by men. It's human nature. And the male video had a lot more aggressive language than the original 10 hours video.
No, it's offensive sometimes to some people. You'll notice several women here who like catcalling, generally if it's done more tastefully and by someone they don't find repulsive.
And the majority don't like it. Why should that be ignored? Oh right, the minority likes it, so it must be okay for everyone, then.
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Again, you're overly rigid in your view of "our culture." America is and has always been a mixing pot. Latino culture or African American culture are very much American culture. They might not be the white bread that you view as your culture.
It's not just "white bread," it's people who come here and refuse to adapt, at least a little. When Americans do this in another country, they are despised.
I grew up in a community that had a high percentage of immigrants. Some kept their native culture, but adapted enough so they were not despised here. Others didn't. The ones who adapted had a negative view of the ones who didn't.
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And again, you demand respect of "our culture," which is really your culture, but are completely unwilling to respect another culture.
I am unwilling to respect cultures which beat or kill women too, or think it's okay to rape them. How terrible of me!
There IS some expectation in any country for immigrants to adapt, enough so that they are not angering those of other cultures, particularly the dominant culture in the country they've moved to. No attempt whatsoever to do this will not go well for them, unless they intend to insulate themselves completely from others outside of that culture.
In this example, they have to know full well that what they're doing is frequently not appreciated, but they won't stop. Why should they? Their humiliated, unappreciating "targets" are always told to stop complaining and be flattered.
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If you come from a culture where complements of that nature are more common (Latino culture), you have a different perception than someone from a Puritan background.
That's what I'm saying. The guys who do this, do it to women who are almost certainly NOT from a culture which likes it, and they do it to these women anyway. Because they don't care. That's the part that is not respecting others' cultures. Saying, "This is how we do it in our culture" (which is not part of my culture) and expecting me to like it just because of that, isn't going to cut it.
This whole dialog, and these videos, demonstrate that. We don't like it, we feel uncomfortable, sometimes humiliated, and that's being ignored. And not only that, they're being enabled by others.
They don't have to do this to every woman they see. I don't believe it's some sort of cultural mandate that forces them to do it. And even if it did, that's got to change. They are no longer in their own country where it's acceptable. They must adjust to others here too.
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