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In many countries for a US citizen or anyone from another country, you need a sponsor, you need to prove you have enough in financial assets that you won't be a burden to that country.....unlike the US.
Oh you don't need just "enough" financial assets lol most other countries will require you to have a liquid net worth north of $100,000,000 USD.
I have never traveled farther than 400 miles from my hometown in my life, and am quite content with being an American, but I do periodically daydream about moving to the Netherlands. My sister lives there and I would move there to be with her and her family. However, there are several requirements for Dutch immigration that I cannot meet. So I stay in America, and talk to my sister on Facebook or Skype.
Oh you don't need just "enough" financial assets lol most other countries will require you to have a liquid net worth north of $100,000,000 USD.
Liquid net worth of 100 million dollars ? And "most countries" ?
You could not be more wrong. A steady income stream is what most countries want to see when retirees want to live there. They just want proof you won't become a burden to the state.
Panama, for example, just requires a pension of over $1000 a month for a retiree visa.
I had to delurk here because I simply can't believe some of the misinformation and misconceptions on this thread that have gained traction-- just to be clear, I'm an American with no plans to move abroad or expatriate at any point in the foreseeable future, come from a patriotic military family and have gotten things to work reasonably well for my own career and family. But with that said, I do know a number of US expats across the political spectrum and they had very good reasons for leaving the US for good esp. in the past five years.
1. To the people who mock a desire to leave the US by invoking the tired "grass is greener" dismissal (or even worse, the "don't let the door hit you on way out") or claims that other countries are backward compared to the US (or simply that "every country has its ups and downs")-- no, there are some things that are very seriously flawed with US policy these days that really are forcing Americans out. I'd say the biggest one is our ever more frightening health care system and its devastating costs. The US is beleaguered by millions of medical bankruptcies, whereas places like Europe (from Germany and Scandinavia down to even the poorer southern countries), Canada, Australia, even modernized Asian and South American countries (Uruguay, Chile, Costa Rica, the richer parts of Brazil, Argentina, Colombia) don't have the fear of medical bankruptcy. People there are covered. And no, this is NOT because their taxes are higher-- add up all the US taxes, not just income to the Feds but also state and property, local, sales, payroll, franchise, and they're around the same as the rest of the developed world. Yet we also have to shell out a lot more money for healthcare and childcare, and even when we DO get health insurance, Americans STILL go bankrupt due to things like providers being out of network in an emergency, or other unexpected fees and co-pays. Remember-- the US spends much more on healthcare than the rest of the developed world, yet has much lousier results. (And forget about all the myths-- Americans often have to wait longer for appointments than Canadians or Europeans.)
And to anyone who tries to dismiss the healthcare anxiety in the United States as an issue driving emigration-- the danger of losing years and years worth of savings is not trivial, and it's especially damaging to ambitious people who want to start their own businesses or do their own creative work, since they're preyed upon by medical bills and our health insurance system. One of my closest friends lost his business and tens of thousands of dollars he'd saved up due to complications involving his daughter's birth. He was insured and worked hard, saved up, did the things you're supposed to do for the American dream, but he lost everything because of the magical medical bills of providers being "out of network". This is not OK, and it's not a liberal or conservative thing, it's a policy failure that the rest of the world does better. Aside from the healthcare nightmare in the US, other things like our over $1 trillion in student loans (nondischargeable debt), the costs of a nasty divorce (US has among the highest divorce rates and both spouses are often hit hard financially by the costs of the process, which doesn't happen so much in other countries that use mediation), poor public transportation and infrastructure, higher crime than Europe and Canada (and most of east Asia), scarier police (raiding you amid the Drug War). crazy expensive daycare, much less vacation, stuck with two tired old political parties instead of multi-party in rest of world, unable to bring about political change since US politicians are bribed by big lobbyists (political donations illegal in much of rest of world)...
As you can see, in many crucial areas of social quality, the grass really is greener in other parts of the world than in the USA. As it is, my wife and I have done well enough that we haven't had to deal with the effects of these issues. But our own kids, facing incredibly expensive college tuition costs that would force them into debt, already are looking at going somewhere overseas. (Germany for example has free college even for Americans if they get their German good enough.) Dismissing this and telling people "good-riddance to ya" is dumb, because it ignores some serious policy shortcomings in the US that really are driving qualified Americans out.
2. Some posters are getting the numbers mixed up. This is not a mere "0.001%" of Americans moving abroad-- that's a partial list of passport renouncers kept in a Treasury database, often due to problems with the FatCa law. Total expats are much higher, in fact State itself estimates as least 7-8 million or a good deal higher (and rising), some of them relinquishing US citizenship (not same as renouncing), some renouncing but not appearing on databases, others with dual passports or some other arrangement. There are a very large number of Americans leaving the country.
3. As to those who try to turn this into a liberal or conservative issue-- again, it's not, and these tired and lame attempts to simplify this using tired and useless ideological stamps is part of the frustration felt by so many Americans. People want solutions to things like the healthcare crisis in the US or the $1.2 trillion in student loans, or the poorly written FatCa laws, crime waves and infrastructure failings. These don't fit so easily within a liberal or conservative agenda, people just want productive action on them without the ideology. The US being such a big country, can't easily be described as either-- as someone who's generally been conservative leaning since growing up in a military family, I'm especially surprised anyone would call the US a "conservative paradise" when things like affirmative action, fairly high taxes in many states, outsourcing of US jobs (i.e. little nationalist support for our own workers), an agency that spies on our own citizens, a much harsher tax-authority (with much nastier penalties than in Europe for example) and some very tight restrictions and regulations on some types of businesses put that description into question-- or at least make us harder to stamp as liberal or conservative. I do have many conservative friends who have emigrated from the US, and many have in fact gone to Europe (Switzerland, Nordic countries, much of France and Germany and even Spain have fairly relaxed gun laws and more nationalist policies than the US in many areas), or to Hong Kong or Singapore, or especially to countries like Panama, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Colombia, Argentina, Chile, Brazil or Uruguay which are often clearly more conservative than the US in some elements.
4. Many of the people emigrating from the USA do so simply for opportunity, not for political reasons. So the "don't let the door hit you-on the way out" crowd looks even more moronic by failing to take this into consideration.
5. Some have cast doubt on the numbers who would actually leave and used this as an argument against the survey. Remember, the survey isn't about those who've made concrete plans to leave, it's about those Americans who are considering it, which is the starting point for the millions of people (a smaller fraction yes, but still very very many) who eventually do leave.
6. In response to the "what's stopping you?" argument-- it's not so easy to move abroad. It takes consideration about employment, social networks, language and other issues, so it's a lame criticism to toss at potential expats by asking them why they haven't done it already. It doesn't work like that. For example, in practice many of my friends and acquaintances who went to Europe, didn't start out in the country they later wound up in. They'd get going in a place like Slovakia, Latvia, Romania, Hungary, Estonia where it's easier to get a permit, get some savings built up, learn a language (German being key just about anywhere with Germany being the pivot for the whole continent's economy), make contacts, and then thanks to EU and Schingen freedom of movement policies, move to one of the more traditional attracting countries (Netherlands or Belgium, Nordics, Germany, France, parts of Spain or Italy, Britain or Ireland as example).
7. To those dismissing Millennials for being naive in their desire to move abroad (as Millennials were the most keen on emigrating from the US in the survey, with about 55% considering the move)-- don't dismiss their reasons so easily. Millennials have been hit very, very hard by the student loan crisis in the US and shortage of good, high wage jobs-- all the cheaper labor H-1b visas and out-sourcing have taken a wrecking ball to the US tech industry that would otherwise help Millennials to make a living, and with health care costs being so high and their savings so low, Millennials are easily bankrupted by car accidents, an appendicitis or injuries in sports. Millennials see very little resolution to these problems with the USA's current political system and all the friction and shut-downs. Therefore understandably, Millennials are seeing better opportunities abroad.
As for the inevitable question in my own case-- what if my own kids decide to move and stay abroad? Even with all its flaws we still love America and hope our kids do stay and make their careers and families here, but we understand their anxieties and their reasons for considering going elsewhere. We've said we'll help them with their college costs, but given all the tremendous advantages of getting a degree in Germany without any tuition debt, and the prospects there for creative and tech graduates, we would bless them if they were to go in that direction. It really depends on what gets fixed in the country, and there has to be a serious effort to make the necessary changes.
What a wonderful post! You are spot on in a lot of your observations about those going overseas and how most countries are not behind the US on many things especially when it comes to banking, healthcare and not caring about politics when it comes to getting things sorted, we just want things sorted. Plus in Europe travel is easier and far cheaper on many counts and because of the EU you have far more freedom of movement , more protection from employment law and also far more lifestyle benefits like longer annual leave which people take and better maternity provision. In the UK healthcare is free and yes you may wait a bit longer but if you need it anywhere in the UK you can go to any hospital if you are suddenly taken ill and be seen.( Children pay for nothing eg healthcare,travel within London & the suburbs, opticians or dentistry) I have just waited 2 weeks here to see a doctor and I have very high level medical cover through my husbands work here, I now have to wait another 2 weeks to see a specialist even though I am using one of the largest healthcare providers in the state that I live and from what I know insurance will find ways to wriggle out of paying things. You also need insurance for everything here and its not cheap, neither are groceries from what I have experienced. On the upside you have cheap gasoline but then we use public transport a lot in Europe vs cars. My banking in the UK is free and even though I now live in the US they send all my statements and other stuff abroad for FREE! check books are too and we have had chip & pin for over 20 years. New Zealand and Australia even longer. Plus there is not so much religious interference in politics/legislation in a lot of countries and in the UK we observe country rule rather than multiple laws in multiple states sometimes driven by religious agenda & $$$ even though we are built on the church of England people are free to do as they please with regards to most things as long as they stay the right side of the law and at local level government tries to represent all rather than one dominant religion or culture.
Maybe others are taking the plunge and seeing the merits of living elsewhere or maybe they are just adventurous and fancy a change of culture :-)
Last edited by Montygirl; 07-29-2015 at 09:08 PM..
It has taken my brother 8 months to get his Irish passport. And he still doesn't physically have it. Just an email from Ireland saying it's been printed and will be mailed out within the next week.
It took 6 months prior to filing for us to get all the legal documents needed..long form birth, death and marriage certificates. Most of the hassle was in obtaining documents from NYC and NY state...a nightmare in itself.
I was short 1 valid photo ID (9-11 changed the world, not just America) and so am in the process of getting my US Passport so I can have 2 valid IDs to get my Irish Passport.
So if you are serious the process can take anywhere from 1 year to 18 months if not longer.
An Irish passport is one of the most popular passports to have and the queue for getting one is extremely long.
Not surprised, Ireland is gorgeous, the weather isn't great but the rest of it more than makes up for it. I miss visiting it every few months on cheap plane fares and seeing my family there.
The term "national of the United States" includes all U. S. citizens plus natives of American Samoa. They are nationals but not citizens.
You are quoting Title 8, which is not synonymous with "American national."
. . .
Remember, the "United States" may be different from the "United States of America."
★ Article I. The Stile of this confederacy shall be "The United States of America".
★ Article II. Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.
. . .
Furthermore, the term "United States" may mean just the federal government.
Title 28 United States Code, §3002. Definitions,
(15) “United States” means -
(a) a Federal corporation
FEDERAL CORPORATIONS - The United States government is a foreign corporation with respect to a state.
- - - Volume 19, Corpus Juris Secundum XVIII.
Foreign Corporations, Sections 883,884
"The United States and the State of California are two separate sovereignties, each dominant in its own sphere."
- - - Redding v. Los Angeles (1947), 81 C.A.2d 888, 185 P.2d 430.
. . .
And finally, sometimes those legal beagles sneak in the uSA for the US.
[] 13th amendment, Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
{United States, in the plural, means the States united aka "uSA"}
Involuntary servitude shall not exist within the United States (of America) or any place subject to THEIR jurisdiction.
Yet:
[] 14th amendment.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
Why didn’t the writers use “and in any place subject to THEIR jurisdiction?”
Because the “United States” was a direct reference to the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, a “foreign corporation” with respect to a state or any of them.
Remember, citizens have MANDATORY CIVIC DUTIES. If citizenship is imposed at birth, that violates the 13th amendment (as well as the Declaration of Independence and the republican form of government).
The Supreme Court has held, in Butler v. Perry, 240 U.S. 328 (1916), that the Thirteenth Amendment does not prohibit "enforcement of those duties which individuals owe to the state, such as services in the army, MILITIA, on the jury, etc." In Selective Draft Law Cases, 245 U.S. 366 (1918), the Supreme Court ruled that the military draft was not "involuntary servitude".
If slavery / involuntary servitude is abolished and mandatory civic duties are not involuntary servitude, then that leaves only ONE possibility - voluntary servitude.
Since no one can be "born a subject citizen" in the uSA without violating the 13th amendment, for whom was the 14th amendment citizenship created?
And under what "foreign" jurisdiction that is OUTSIDE of the united States of America and places subject to THEIR jurisdiction?
. . .
The duties of the citizen establish that citizens are NOT sovereigns, but subjects.
And to comply with the republican form of government, anything beyond securing rights requires CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED.
Who says so?
How 'bout HONEST ABE - - -
*****************
"What I do say is that no man is good enough to govern another man without that other's consent. I say this is the leading principle, the sheet-anchor of American republicanism. Our Declaration of Independence says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
- - - Abraham Lincoln, Speech at Peoria, Illinois (1854) http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Abraham_lincoln
As Lincoln reminds us, under the republican form, promised by the USCON, instituted by the Declaration of Independence, NO MAN (nor American government) is good enough to govern you without your consent. Without your consent, all that government is authorized to do is secure rights (prosecute trespass; adjudicate disputes; defend against enemies, foreign or domestic).
No infant can consent to be governed, nor embrace mandatory civic duties, or be a citizen at birth in the united States of America...
OR
There is no Declaration of Independence, no republican form of government, and all we have is the People's Democratic Socialist Republic of America - sans that pesky "charter of negative liberties" (saith BHO, that "constitutional scholar" in the White House, ably assisted by Chief Justice Roberts ).
Your "right to life" has become a government granted privilege, as all other aspects of your life. All that is not mandatory, shall be licensed (+ taxed) or forbidden. You already need a license (or pay a tax) to live, work, travel, buy, sell, operate a business, transmit radio, fly a plane, trade in healthcare, buy medicine, cut hair, build a house, hunt, fish, marry and / or own a dog. You have to accept being groped to fly on commercial airliners. The worst is yet to come... oh, right, and when you die, they take a chunk of your estate, too.
And do not forget your papers-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s!
BUT BUT BUT
“... at the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people, and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects, and have none to govern but themselves..."
- - - Justice John Jay in Chisholm v. Georgia (2 U.S. 419 (1793))
American people / American nationals / free inhabitants (who did not consent) are the SOVEREIGNS served by government, not ruled by them.
Can't have it both ways.
Either you're born with ENDOWED natural rights, natural and personal liberty, and absolute ownership (not needing permission of a superior) - - -
OR
You were born a slave of the government, with no endowed rights, but only government granted privileges (political and civil liberty).
What a wonderful post! You are spot on in a lot of your observations about those going overseas and how most countries are not behind the US on many things especially when it comes to banking, healthcare and not caring about politics when it comes to getting things sorted, we just want things sorted. Plus in Europe travel is easier and far cheaper on many counts and because of the EU you have far more freedom of movement , more protection from employment law and also far more lifestyle benefits like longer annual leave which people take and better maternity provision. In the UK healthcare is free and yes you may wait a bit longer but if you need it anywhere in the UK you can go to any hospital if you are suddenly taken ill and be seen.( Children pay for nothing eg healthcare,travel within London & the suburbs, opticians or dentistry) I have just waited 2 weeks here to see a doctor and I have very high level medical cover through my husbands work here, I now have to wait another 2 weeks to see a specialist even though I am using one of the largest healthcare providers in the state that I live and from what I know insurance will find ways to wriggle out of paying things. You also need insurance for everything here and its not cheap, neither are groceries from what I have experienced. On the upside you have cheap gasoline but then we use public transport a lot in Europe vs cars. My banking in the UK is free and even though I now live in the US they send all my statements and other stuff abroad for FREE! check books are too and we have had chip & pin for over 20 years. New Zealand and Australia even longer. Plus there is not so much religious interference in politics/legislation in a lot of countries and in the UK we observe country rule rather than multiple laws in multiple states sometimes driven by religious agenda & $$$ even though we are built on the church of England people are free to do as they please with regards to most things as long as they stay the right side of the law and at local level government tries to represent all rather than one dominant religion or culture.
Maybe others are taking the plunge and seeing the merits of living elsewhere or maybe they are just adventurous and fancy a change of culture :-)
Great points Montygirl, yes in addition to the health care advantages the freedom of travel and transportation I hear are among the best benefits of going to Europe. I met a couple American students who were working very hard on mastering their German along with some French and Dutch on the side (like so many other Americans they're hoping to get admitted to one of the universities in Germany with free tuition and wanted their application to be more competitive). They said they'd gone to Europe for 6 months to help boost their German skills, staying not only in Switzerland but also in cities throughout Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Latvia, Slovakia and Lithuania (where German is used for all kinds of esp. business and public-related purposes but it's often cheaper to stay and board up than in Switzerland) They said one of the best parts of it was that it so much easier to get around the whole region, whether working odd jobs or just traveling and practicing their German, than any comparable region back in the US. That combined with the low-cost healthcare and exciting tech and startup environment (which is actually pretty strong around there) turned out to be a big draw. They were eventually admitted to European universities (one in Germany, the other two to German universities in Poland and Hungary), and they're already making plans to stay in Europe after they graduate. The health care there is a big draw, but so is the convenience and all the advantages of being able to travel around such culturally and naturally rich areas with ease.
I would actually love trying it out for a year or two and see what I like better myself. I've heard many good things about Switzerland and Ireland for example.
Unlike the US, I think Switzerland actually cares who resides within their borders. Moving there might be more difficult than you think.
Unlike the US, I think Switzerland actually cares who resides within their borders. Moving there might be more difficult than you think.
The Swiss do try to set the bar high and attract quality immigrants, but that said, if someone comes in with skills, discipline, an entrepreneurial attitude and willingness to learn the languages (esp. German and French), they're generally pretty cool at extending a hand. They simply want someone who's motivated and a good citizen.
Unlike the US, I think Switzerland actually cares who resides within their borders. Moving there might be more difficult than you think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corascant
The Swiss do try to set the bar high and attract quality immigrants, but that said, if someone comes in with skills, discipline, an entrepreneurial attitude and willingness to learn the languages (esp. German and French), they're generally pretty cool at extending a hand. They simply want someone who's motivated and a good citizen.
Imagine if we adopted this excellent/sane approach in the US? We'd get a bunch of people whining left and right how wrong this approach is, calling it elitist, and all those other popular PC buzzwords of the day.
Back to how our country seems to work these days......what's best to ultimately fulfill the agenda of a few who are only out for themselves, not what's best for our country as a whole.
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