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Old 09-28-2015, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,974 posts, read 40,985,423 times
Reputation: 44906

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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
If it can be found in animals then it can be isolated from them to use in diagnostic tests such as antibody or PCR but if it was never isolated in humans then it actually may not exist or at the very least doesn't appear to replicate enough to cause harm. Antibody and PCR testing don't isolate viruses only parts of what they think are parts of the virus or the body's reaction to it in the form of antibodies.

Being able to diagnose isn't dependent on having it be isolated in a human (which it hasn't ever been).
The photos I previously showed you are of Ebola virus in humans. The photo taken in 1976 is from virus isolated from a human and then grown in cell culture. That is how viral isolation is performed.

Laboratory Diagnostic Systems for Ebola and Marburg Hemorrhagic Fevers Developed with Recombinant Proteins

Are you seriously stating that humans do not get Ebola? If so, your credibility, already pretty much non-existent concerning virology, is well and truly dead.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/14/us...bola.html?_r=0

"At the peak of illness, an Ebola patient can have 10 billion viral particles in one-fifth of a teaspoon of blood. That compares with 50,000 to 100,000 particles in an untreated H.I.V. patient, and five million to 20 million in someone with untreated hepatitis C."

Ebola replicates rapidly in humans, killing them fairly quickly.

You do not develop antibodies to Ebola if you have not had it (or have not taken one of the vaccines being developed against it.

PCR detects the DNA or RNA of the virus being tested for, not "only parts of what they think are parts of the virus", but real viral DNA or RNA. Ebola is an RNA virus.

PCR and antibody tests do not need virus capable of replicating. Material being tested can be treated to inactivate the virus and reduce the risk of exposure of lab personnel. Isolation of the virus must be performed in a level 4 lab because of the hazards associated with handling infectious material. Isolation is not used for diagnosis.
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Old 09-28-2015, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,974 posts, read 40,985,423 times
Reputation: 44906
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
She had underlying health conditions and was in a health facility when she contracted measles which showed zero symptoms and was only discovered upon her death. There is so little known about this case. We know more about the situation in Kenya then this one. WA state disease surveillance hasn't even put the case into their surveillance stats that are up to date through the end of August. Her death was reported in early July.
I have explained to you before that updating of infectious disease surveillance statistics often lags behind several months. It is often a year or two before they are finalized.

The fact remains that Washington State department of health reported the death and the official cause of death, determined at autopsy, is measles pneumonia.

Feel free to believe it is all a hoax if you want to. It's not.

Quote:
Are you claiming to know what caused the deaths? That's more then the investigators know. How would you know that the deaths were due to the cleaner (who had worked for the health dept. for 8 years and administered vaccinations a number of times before) using the wrong solution. That may be what you think could have possibly happened but that is just your theory and is not confirmed. The results of any investigation (if there was one) have not been released. If you have info on that please share your source.

The thread title was correct. The children died after being vaccinated for measles in Kenya. That's a fact. The details are yet to be known. I doubt we will ever know. All that the officials are doing currently is pointing fingers. The media hasn't released any info for some time.
Obviously no one knows yet for sure what happened. This is a poor third world country we are talking about. Their resources are limited.

The children died after being vaccinated, but other children who got the same lot of vaccine have not gotten sick. That points to a local problem, not a vaccine problem. Dying after the vaccine does not mean the children died from the vaccine.
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Old 09-28-2015, 02:34 PM
 
26,646 posts, read 13,620,684 times
Reputation: 19104
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I have explained to you before that updating of infectious disease surveillance statistics often lags behind several months. It is often a year or two before they are finalized.

The fact remains that Washington State department of health reported the death and the official cause of death, determined at autopsy, is measles pneumonia.

Feel free to believe it is all a hoax if you want to. It's not.
All of your insistence does not negate the fact that very little is known about that case including the health of the women prior to her death.

Quote:
Obviously no one knows yet for sure what happened. This is a poor third world country we are talking about. Their resources are limited.
Yes, obviously no one knows so why make up theories and try to pass them off as truth? Your theory is just as likely as it being the vaccine. No one knows and until we hear more it's ridiculous to claim to know what the true cause was. All that we know was that two children died and several others were rushed to the hospital after they were given a vaccination for measles. The media has been silent for awhile. This should be investigated and hopefully info will be released but I'm not holding my breath.

Quote:
The children died after being vaccinated, but other children who got the same lot of vaccine have not gotten sick. That points to a local problem, not a vaccine problem. Dying after the vaccine does not mean the children died from the vaccine.
Maybe, maybe not. Wait and see. Its just as absurd for you to insist that it could not be the vaccine is it for people to insist that it definitely was. Will there be a thorough investigation? Or will this just be swept under the rug?
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Old 09-28-2015, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,974 posts, read 40,985,423 times
Reputation: 44906
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
All of your insistence does not negate the fact that very little is known about that case including the health of the women prior to her death.
Due to the family's request for anonymity much has not been reported. That does not mean that the medical personnel who cared for her know "very little."

The Washington department of health has confirmed that she was immunosuppressed and that autopsy confirms she died from measles. Why do you refuse to accept that she died from measles?

Quote:
Yes, obviously no one knows so why make up theories and try to pass them off as truth? Your theory is just as likely as it being the vaccine. No one knows and until we hear more it's ridiculous to claim to know what the true cause was. All that we know was that two children died and several others were rushed to the hospital after they were given a vaccination for measles. The media has been silent for awhile. This should be investigated and hopefully info will be released but I'm not holding my breath.

Maybe, maybe not. Wait and see. Its just as absurd for you to insist that it could not be the vaccine is it for people to insist that it definitely was. Will there be a thorough investigation? Or will this just be swept under the rug?
The fact that others in Kenya who received vaccine from the same lot and did not get sick is strong evidence that the problem is not the vaccine. The fact that all of the people who got sick were vaccinated by the same untrained person strongly suggests that person made a mistake.

How do you account for only people who got the vaccine from the "cleaner" getting sick and people who got the same vaccine elsewhere having no problems with it?
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Old 09-28-2015, 02:55 PM
 
14,337 posts, read 14,145,156 times
Reputation: 45590
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
All of your insistence does not negate the fact that very little is known about that case including the health of the women prior to her death.

Yes, obviously no one knows so why make up theories and try to pass them off as truth? Your theory is just as likely as it being the vaccine. No one knows and until we hear more it's ridiculous to claim to know what the true cause was. All that we know was that two children died and several others were rushed to the hospital after they were given a vaccination for measles. The media has been silent for awhile. This should be investigated and hopefully info will be released but I'm not holding my breath.

Maybe, maybe not. Wait and see. Its just as absurd for you to insist that it could not be the vaccine is it for people to insist that it definitely was. Will there be a thorough investigation? Or will this just be swept under the rug?
First of all, do you understand that any investigation would be under the jurisdiction of the country of Kenya? Neither, the USA, nor the CDC have any power to compel Kenya to do anything at all. Now, its possible Kenya may conduct its own investigation or allow one by an independent agency like WHO. Do you have some power that I am unaware of to force Kenya to conduct an investigation (one that meets your exacting standards) into these deaths?

Second, if the vaccine were at fault why did only these two deaths occur? Do you have any explanation for that at all? Where all the deaths from administering the measles vaccine over the last fifty years? I suppose its possible there was one defective lot of vaccine that was dangerous, but your suggestion seems to be that its not "one lot", its the entire measles vaccine that's dangerous. At least, that's the way you've been carrying on here for months. If that's true, there should be documented deaths right here in our own country and places like Canada and Europe.

Third, the media hasn't been silent about this, or you wouldn't know about it. No one is ssweeping anything under the rug.

Fourth, giving vaccines or any medicine in third world conditions is going to present more of a problem than it is in the USA or in other first world countries. The same resources and the same experienced and trained people don't exist in lesser developed countries.

More smoke and mirrors on your part to try and obfuscate the real problem.
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Old 09-28-2015, 03:59 PM
 
26,646 posts, read 13,620,684 times
Reputation: 19104
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Due to the family's request for anonymity much has not been reported. That does not mean that the medical personnel who cared for her know "very little."
Unless you are a part of your family then that means that you know very little as well, jus like everyone else.

Quote:
The Washington department of health has confirmed that she was immunosuppressed and that autopsy confirms she died from measles. Why do you refuse to accept that she died from measles?
There is so little information on this. Without any information at all, how can anyone believe this? Even WA state diseases surveillance stats don't back this up. When you hear the news story of two infants dying after being injected with a measles vaccine, you refuse to believe it so what's the difference? One suits your agenda, the other does not. I'm keeping an open mind about both.

Quote:
The fact that others in Kenya who received vaccine from the same lot and did not get sick is strong evidence that the problem is not the vaccine. The fact that all of the people who got sick were vaccinated by the same untrained person strongly suggests that person made a mistake. How do you account for only people who got the vaccine from the "cleaner" getting sick and people who got the same vaccine elsewhere having no problems with it?
We'll have to wait and see. Did they really receive vaccinations from the exact same batch. Any evidence of that? It very well could be a handling error and if so that needs to be addressed as well. Babies died, babies went to the hospital. Its tragic no matter what happened. This doesn't even need to be a vaccine debate, it's something that happened in the world thus the reason why it's in the Current Events section.
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Old 09-28-2015, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,484,668 times
Reputation: 1737
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
All of your insistence does not negate the fact that very little is known about that case including the health of the women prior to her death.

Yes, obviously no one knows so why make up theories and try to pass them off as truth? Your theory is just as likely as it being the vaccine. No one knows and until we hear more it's ridiculous to claim to know what the true cause was. All that we know was that two children died and several others were rushed to the hospital after they were given a vaccination for measles. The media has been silent for awhile. This should be investigated and hopefully info will be released but I'm not holding my breath.

Maybe, maybe not. Wait and see. Its just as absurd for you to insist that it could not be the vaccine is it for people to insist that it definitely was. Will there be a thorough investigation? Or will this just be swept under the rug?
Also the woman in Washington was vaccinated... that could be why they found it in autopsy yet she had no symptoms. She died from pneumonia not measles.
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Old 09-28-2015, 04:04 PM
 
26,646 posts, read 13,620,684 times
Reputation: 19104
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
First of all, do you understand that any investigation would be under the jurisdiction of the country of Kenya? Neither, the USA, nor the CDC have any power to compel Kenya to do anything at all. Now, its possible Kenya may conduct its own investigation or allow one by an independent agency like WHO. Do you have some power that I am unaware of to force Kenya to conduct an investigation (one that meets your exacting standards) into these deaths?
Obviously. I don't know why you think that I implied anything else.

Quote:
Second, if the vaccine were at fault why did only these two deaths occur? Do you have any explanation for that at all? Where all the deaths from administering the measles vaccine over the last fifty years? I suppose its possible there was one defective lot of vaccine that was dangerous, but your suggestion seems to be that its not "one lot", its the entire measles vaccine that's dangerous. At least, that's the way you've been carrying on here for months. If that's true, there should be documented deaths right here in our own country and places like Canada and Europe.
The point is that we don't know what the cause of death was so until we know that, we can't blame or defend the vaccine. We have no evidence that it was even from the same batch as other vaccines administered. Everything seems to be hearsay at this point with a lot of finger pointing and no investigating.

Quote:
Third, the media hasn't been silent about this, or you wouldn't know about it. No one is ssweeping anything under the rug.
Can you find a recent story about this? Anything within the last week? Any updates on the investigation? Do you really think there will be any more news about this?

Quote:
Fourth, giving vaccines or any medicine in third world conditions is going to present more of a problem than it is in the USA or in other first world countries. The same resources and the same experienced and trained people don't exist in lesser developed countries.
Yes.

Quote:
More smoke and mirrors on your part to try and obfuscate the real problem.
More thinly veiled personal attacks because you can't discuss the topic without resorting to taking jabs at me. Its funny because I am not even saying that it was for sure the vaccine that caused the deaths. I'm actually being objective and still getting attacked. For what exactly?
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Old 09-28-2015, 04:08 PM
 
26,646 posts, read 13,620,684 times
Reputation: 19104
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Also the woman in Washington was vaccinated... that could be why they found it in autopsy yet she had no symptoms. She died from pneumonia not measles.
Yes, it could be. So many unknowns. It's amazing that WA state still has not updated their surveillance stats. It's a simple data entry admin duty that would take one minute at most of their time and since they publish them every month, you'd think they'd be more on top of that. I mean if it's confirmed then they should be able to share it.
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Old 09-28-2015, 04:36 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 1,015,551 times
Reputation: 2378
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Yes, it could be. So many unknowns. It's amazing that WA state still has not updated their surveillance stats. It's a simple data entry admin duty that would take one minute at most of their time and since they publish them every month, you'd think they'd be more on top of that. I mean if it's confirmed then they should be able to share it.
It's mind numbing the "majoring in the minors". Vaccines save hundreds of thousands of lives and you post over and over ad nauseum about why you don't know more about the private medical history of a women iwho died of pneumonia related to measles. Do you think measles doesn't kill people? Smallpox? polio? What's your actual point???? Do you think these diseases are fictional???

You and katonj try to make a huge deal out of two people out of hundreds of thousands who are sick, in Africa, most probably due to the fact that the circumstances surrounding that vaccine are questionable at best.

it is a sign of the profound failure of your anti-science agenda that this is the best you can come up with to point to vaccines being a problem. The hundreds of thousands who DIDNT get sick are busy leading their lives, but aren't the people that were protected from these deadly illnesses even a little relevant to your conspiracy theories?
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