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Old 09-22-2015, 06:02 AM
 
6,720 posts, read 8,347,215 times
Reputation: 10409

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
It is a proven fact that middle schoolers' brains lack decision making skills we adults have. And no, just because I don't believe criminal charges should be used in this situation DOES NOT mean I believe middle schools should be a free for all. Where do you even pull that from??? I've said numerous times the situation should be handled by discipline and possibly therapy.

Again, we do not need to criminalize every wrongdoing.
I pulled the " free for all" because you think this is a simple matter handled by detention. If there are t consequences and an atmosphere that accepts horrible behavior as common place...you get a free for all atmosphere. Kids can do awful things and must be held accountable.

There is a huge amount of space between detention and arrest. The punishment should be in the middle ground.

 
Old 09-22-2015, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
38,936 posts, read 23,767,870 times
Reputation: 14125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyerland View Post
I pulled the " free for all" because you think this is a simple matter handled by detention. If there are t consequences and an atmosphere that accepts horrible behavior as common place...you get a free for all atmosphere. Kids can do awful things and must be held accountable.

There is a huge amount of space between detention and arrest. The punishment should be in the middle ground.
The only reason the issue should be an in school issue was it happened at school. That other poster who "got his friend wet" wasn't as clear cut and could be attempted drowning incident, a clear crime that could and should be on their record. This at best is a urinating on the side of the road case that shouldn't follow the boy. Shouldn't man that we shouldn't process him and scare him straight because detention and suspension wouldn't do much.
 
Old 09-22-2015, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Texas
44,256 posts, read 64,142,036 times
Reputation: 73916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
I got flashed by a bum years ago. It scared the **** out of me. He came from behind a building and dropped his pants. I was afraid for awhile to go out by myself. Eventually I started doing so again and everything was good with my world. I wouldn't have wanted this guy arrested. I'd want him to get the help he needed so he didn't do it again. The guy probably had an addiction and/or mental health disorder. Arresting him and throwing him in a cell doesn't help anyone.
Now 13 year old = mental disorder.

Look, these are not shenannigans. I was 13. I had lost of 13 year old male friends. NO ONE would have thought this was appropriate at any time.
 
Old 09-22-2015, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Texas
44,256 posts, read 64,142,036 times
Reputation: 73916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
If this happened to my daughter, I would be fighting against criminal charges for the boy. I would be vocal about the need for discipline and counseling. Ruining another person's life isn't going to help the victim. We need to get over that mentality.
You're right.
Let's just let all rapists go...wouldn't want to ruin their lives.
Murderers, too.
I mean, none of this is going to bring the victim back.

What is wrong with you people? This is not a simple matter of setting off fireworks behind the school or spray painting a building. Youthful indiscretions.

This is physical and sexual assault.
 
Old 09-22-2015, 06:57 AM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
38,936 posts, read 23,767,870 times
Reputation: 14125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
I got flashed by a bum years ago. It scared the **** out of me. He came from behind a building and dropped his pants. I was afraid for awhile to go out by myself. Eventually I started doing so again and everything was good with my world. I wouldn't have wanted this guy arrested. I'd want him to get the help he needed so he didn't do it again. The guy probably had an addiction and/or mental health disorder. Arresting him and throwing him in a cell doesn't help anyone.
The system as it stands now don't and we don't really have the mental hospitals to fix your flasher's "mental issues" (I just personally think he was an exhibitionist which isn't a mental illness in it off itself.) So we have to lock them up and hope they don't become hardened or give them slaps on the wrists.
 
Old 09-22-2015, 07:46 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,974 posts, read 26,897,065 times
Reputation: 15644
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
I have a son (now an adult ). I can agree they can do some stupid things. That said, I can't think of any of the MS boys I knew that would grab and hold a girl by her clothing, then force his tongue down her mouth, to the accompanying taunts of his friends. It's disturbing to say the least. Frankly, if this is indicative of the road this particular group of boys is headed down, the parents ought to be grateful it's being seriously dealt with BEFORE it becomes an even more egregious assault. This is not normal "just being a boy" behavior. At all.
I know things have changed since I was in school, and somewhat more since my son was in school. Kids today are bombarded with more sexualized content nowadays, see more sexual content on TV,movies,magazines and in music (MTV awards anyone?) so it's not all that shocking that this happened, wrong as it is.

I can tell you that while my son was in middle/high school I was surprised at some of the actions boys/girls took. An example, a boy in my son's class borrowed a friends cell phone and was shooting video up a girls skirt at a dance without her knowledge and to the applause of a group of boys.
Principal was informed immediately and all that happened was the principal took the phone for the rest of the dance although left the content on it. When the girl was informed she pretty much said "so what".

Twerking,grinding,half naked girls all around testosterone filled boys who were very obviously "excited" to be with them. It's surprising we don't actually hear more of things like this happening.

Yep, some things have changed in the last several years and in my opinion not for the better.
I still stand by my assertion that while what this boy did was ABSOLUTELY wrong it should be handled in school. We should also look at how we, as a society play a role in how kids are acting.
 
Old 09-22-2015, 07:56 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 1,015,846 times
Reputation: 2378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
I got flashed by a bum years ago. It scared the **** out of me. He came from behind a building and dropped his pants. I was afraid for awhile to go out by myself. Eventually I started doing so again and everything was good with my world. I wouldn't have wanted this guy arrested. I'd want him to get the help he needed so he didn't do it again. The guy probably had an addiction and/or mental health disorder. Arresting him and throwing him in a cell doesn't help anyone.
And thank goodness you and those that think like you are having less influence on these issues. You were "afraid to to out". These girls are AT SCHOOL. They should be worried about grade 8 science not getting grabbed by the front of their shirt and having a tongue stuck in their mouth while a posse of boys cheer the attacker on. This boy isn't mentally ill, should know better, and acting decisively now may save him and his peers from much more serious punishment later. I guess raping a drunk coed should be dealt with by the colleges since the girls don't remember every element and we wouldn't want to ruin the boys' lives. (because, of course, it should be all about the perpetrator).

Quote:
Originally Posted by reed067 View Post
Are you upset because no boy kissed you when you were that age? I'm in my upper 40's & no one whined about these stupid little crybaby issues. This not is even worth posting on my opinion. Someone was always stealing kisses from the other & no one got their collective panties in a bunch about it.
A sexual assault where someone grabs you against your will and jams their tongue in your mouth is as much a "kiss" as a rape is "making love". The language implies a consent that was wholly lacking in this case by all accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
I know things have changed since I was in school, and somewhat more since my son was in school. Kids today are bombarded with more sexualized content nowadays, see more sexual content on TV,movies,magazines and in music (MTV awards anyone?) so it's not all that shocking that this happened, wrong as it is.

I can tell you that while my son was in middle/high school I was surprised at some of the actions boys/girls took. An example, a boy in my son's class borrowed a friends cell phone and was shooting video up a girls skirt at a dance without her knowledge and to the applause of a group of boys.
Principal was informed immediately and all that happened was the principal took the phone for the rest of the dance although left the content on it. When the girl was informed she pretty much said "so what".

Twerking,grinding,half naked girls all around testosterone filled boys who were very obviously "excited" to be with them. It's surprising we don't actually hear more of things like this happening.

Yep, some things have changed in the last several years and in my opinion not for the better.
I still stand by my assertion that while what this boy did was ABSOLUTELY wrong it should be handled in school. We should also look at how we, as a society play a role in how kids are acting.
The fact that your son hangs out with boys that video up girls' skirts (and your description as no big deal or maybe even the girls' fault because they were "twerking' with testosterone filled boys) explains a lot about the kind of kid you're raising and your opinion on punishment. Thank god in this school girls would be better protected from boys like your son.
 
Old 09-22-2015, 07:59 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,974 posts, read 26,897,065 times
Reputation: 15644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyerland View Post
The forcible kiss in the OPwas in front of others, so the example I used with two males would have been the same circumstances. If it's just a kiss and boys being boys in this instance, why wouldn't it be the same thing with two males? You really think if a kid was dared to do it and he did it, it would be a secret. You don't spend much time in middle schools if you think that's true.

Do you think gay males better at controlling their impulses? I am sure there are some gay male teens that want to kiss their boys. They may even be dared to do it. What if it's a smaller and more vulnerable male that is assaulted?do you think all male boys can protect themselves or even fight off an attacker?

It would be wrong in that instance and it's wrong now...and it would be a crime either way. I don't think jail time would be appropriate, but something more than just a detention needs to occur. Suspension, alternative placement, or expulsion are all options. The kid also needs mandatory counseling. I never advocated for jail, but there need to be consequences.

Oh, the reasons I listed those scenarios is because I don't think you think this girl was assaulted. A level 5 out of 10 offense for a middle schooler is probably cursing and flipping the teacher off. This is a 8-9 at least. If you were that girl in middle school you would not think it was a mild offense.

Wasn't it you that pushed a kid in the river for some simple verbal taunts? He didn't even physically or sexually assault you. This is far worse.
I absolutely think the girl was assaulted, no question about that. The reason for the 4/5 is there are way,way more serious actions that teens do nowadays that rate higher on the scale.
I think we are in agreement more than we disagree. I agree it's severity deserves more than simple detention but short of expulsion and legal prosecution, I think ISS is better than off grounds suspension btw.
As for counseling, as I've stated before I think the whole group of kids in his grade including girls need education in this kind of behavior and this incident is a good way to do that.
 
Old 09-22-2015, 08:06 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,974 posts, read 26,897,065 times
Reputation: 15644
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
Before you start attacking the victim here, we have no way of knowing whether she thought this was a "big deal". What it is is illegal, I am not a man hater, I am someone who won't defend men who attack women or boys who attack girls. Actually, correction, boys who attack anyone.

Where do you draw the line? Grab her by the shirt on a dare and jam his tongue in her mouth is okay with you... Okay, rip down her pants? Yank off her shirt? Punch her? Where is the line drawn by you?

Ps many of the posters here are men, and my husband feels even stronger about the fact that he should be charged than I do. This is SO far from normal behaviour in any playground I have ever seen. And no, I'm not raising fragile flowers, I would guess my daughters could kick many of your boys' butts - which is hardly the point. All children should feel safe from being attacked by a posse of pervs in training.

Thank goodness for laws, they appear to be filling a huge gap where parents have their heads up their rear regions.
I would hope that your daughters would slap the snot out of a boy who did something like this. That in my opinion sends a more powerful message than any charges ever could.

I remember to this day the first and only time I got slapped silly by a girl, just for being a jerk, not for touching her or anything. Certainly made an impression on me that's lasted 40 years.
 
Old 09-22-2015, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
24,012 posts, read 28,368,994 times
Reputation: 41122
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
I absolutely think the girl was assaulted, no question about that. The reason for the 4/5 is there are way,way more serious actions that teens do nowadays that rate higher on the scale.
I think we are in agreement more than we disagree. I agree it's severity deserves more than simple detention but short of expulsion and legal prosecution, I think ISS is better than off grounds suspension btw.
As for counseling, as I've stated before I think the whole group of kids in his grade including girls need education in this kind of behavior and this incident is a good way to do that.
Except we don't know what the actual consequences are at this point to say whether it is OTT. There is a charge filed is all. He is being charged as a juvenile . I would imagine, if the charge sticks and as it goes through the system, several things will be taken into consideration when deciding on the consequence and how/when it will be applied. Too early to make a comment on that.

And as despicable as up skirting is, it's not the same as holding onto someone while forcing your bodily fluids into them without their consent.
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