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I have a bit of sympathy for this guy.
He seems like just a dumb ass with no ill intentions.
I don’t “cow down” to that he is a grandpa.
I am not a Grandpa yet.
He is also quite a bit younger than me.
I would not excuse my behavior on my age.
It just ain’t me.
Sounds kinda like deflection.
Criminal charges seem rather harsh.
I do however feel he is liable.
He is liable to the family.
He is also liable for the costs that this company accrued.
Plain ass simple he cost them money and credibility.
Who should pay for that?
You?
Me?
Him?
Just a sorry ass situation.
No winners here.
I think a monetary value should be awarded to the company from him so they can still maintain their credibility.
He could never cover all of those costs.
No way.
No how.
It is just a shame that us consumers have to cover the costs, but I think this is the best way out.
Hogwash. My parents didnt raise me with gloves on and I turned out fine. I would have gotten whipped if I broke a vase, and I can guarantee you I wouldn't have touched another vase after that lol
Now I understand where snowflakes come from though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by luzianne
No, you don't charge the grandfather with manslaughter because he is already punishing himself far more than a prison sentence would. And no, I wouldn't punish the child. I'd let them think about what they did and the result of it and let their guilt do the punishing. Now if they had no remorse and didn't care that they broke the vase, then yes I would punish them.
I was NOT raised like that. I would have been in trouble if I broke the vase. But I think the goal is to teach a lesson and if the lesson is learned, why the need for punishment on top of it?
And why add punishment to a grandfather who is already suffering worse than anything a prison sentence could inflict on him? If the family wanted justice, yes. But they don't.
If it weren't for the family wanting to sue the cruise line, I don't see any reason that the grandfather should be tried for manslaughter. The fact that the family blames the cruise line complicates things, though.
The problem with the "no punishment" model of parenting is that it goes against the basic biological nature of pretty much every living organism on this planet. It’s unnatural, inefficient (not ineffective but much less effective than the "punishment model") and leads to a greater likelihood that a child will be a maladjusted adult. As STV said, the millennial (my) generation is a perfect example of the utter failure of that style of parenting. This is a fascinating topic that I have done a lot of research on. I don’t want to make this post too long but here is a very brief breakdown on the different “parenting models.” I know this post is still quite long but I think anyone who is interested in parenting methods will find it very interesting.
Most living beings preform/avoid actions based on the consequences of said action. If an action leads to a "good physical outcome" they will do it more. If an action leads to a "bad physical outcome" they will avoid it. No amount of "lesson learned" will be more effective in helping a child avoid a bad behavior over a "bad physical outcome" (punishment) to that behavior.
This is because as much as we humans like to think we are "higher beings" a huge proportion of our actions/decisions are inherently driven by our biology. We may be exponentially more intelligent than all other living beings but we are only marginally better than those beings in the categories of emotional growth/regulation, wisdom and interpersonal intelligence. A perfect example of this are kids. From a purely logical point of view, if you live in a first world country adopting a child is the superior choice over having your own kids in pretty much every way possible. But because most of us go by our biological drive over pure logic, most of us have kids instead of adopting.
I can personally attest that I grew up to be a better adult because my parents that physical consequences for my bad behavior. Please note that “physical punishment” does not equal to child abuse. You can have physical consequences for your kid’s bad behavior that does not cross into the territory of child abuse. Taking away a cell phone/video game/TV/toy for a month is a good example. With that in mind here is a humorous anecdotal story from my life that illustrates the effectiveness of proper discipline.
My wife and I adopted 3 kittens 3 years ago. They were all blank slates as far as behavior since they were very little when we adopted them. My wife and I had very different styles of training them. She was purely following the model of: no physical consequences, being gentle (as far as commands) and trying to talk them into complying. I on the other hand have always been a proponent of the “punishment model.” One example of this is the kitchen counters. That was one place the cats are not allowed because their paws are dirty and could lead to food contamination. My wife would always ask them to get down in a gentle voice, ignore them (thinking that not paying attention to their bad behavior would lead to them stopping) or cradle them in a loving way while taking them down from the counters herself.
On the other hand I had a much stricter method. First, I made sure they understood that being on the counter was wrong. Otherwise, any “punishment” I did would just confuse them, make them sad and make them resent me. So I consistently used the word “no” in a harsh tone with every behavior that they were not allowed to do. After about a month or so they understood that the kitchen counters were a “not allowed” area. Then I followed that up with progressive discipline. The steps were the following: Ask them to get down in a strict tone of voice. If they didn’t get off after 5-6 commands I would physically take them down. I had two methods of carrying my cats. One involved a very gentle way of holding them (affection) and the other was a firmer (but caused no pain/discomfort) hold for making them stop doing bad things. So I would use the firm hold to get them off the counter. If they kept getting back on a few times, I would put a tiny bit of water in my hand and flick it at them (the harshest punishment). It took me 2 years of doing that consistently to properly train the cats to not get on the counter. Now 95% of the time they get down off the counter within the first 1-2 commands and they barely get on there in the first place!
It’s been 3 years since we got them and their behavior towards me and my wife based on our disciple style is a stark difference. I should also point out that all 3 cats love both of us. Meaning, me being stricter didn’t make them resent me. In fact, they are more like dogs. They all actively seek out physical affection from both of us 24/7. However, the difference in the “respect level” is night and day. Even in areas that I never trained them on; they instinctively know the “right thing to do.” For example, when my wife is eating food they will jump on the table and try to put their mouth in her food. When I eat they know not to come close to my food even though I have NEVER trained them in that aspect.
Kids are the same way. Raise them with the punishment model and they will not only be more stable adults but will also instinctively know the “proper course of actions” in situations they have never dealt with. Raise them using the no consequence model and you will get a generation of spoiled, entitled snowflakes who think they can do no wrong.
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"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
(set 8 days ago)
35,631 posts, read 17,968,125 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon652
The problem with the "no punishment" model of parenting is that it goes against the basic biological nature of pretty much every living organism on this planet. It’s unnatural, inefficient (not ineffective but much less effective than the "punishment model") and leads to a greater likelihood that a child will be a maladjusted adult. As STV said, the millennial (my) generation is a perfect example of the utter failure of that style of parenting. This is a fascinating topic that I have done a lot of research on. I don’t want to make this post too long but here is a very brief breakdown on the different “parenting models.” I know this post is still quite long but I think anyone who is interested in parenting methods will find it very interesting.
First, y'all are fighting ghosts here, because no one has advocated for no punishment. So there's that.
But, Griffon, let me ask you this. As to your bolded statement.
Have you ever seen another mammal "punish" her offspring? Beyond a quick bark or other admonition to "come back here"? I've seen mammal mothers abandon litters, or rodents put one sick individual out of the nest. But I've never seen a mammal parent beat on an offspring they intend to continue raising, out of a feeling of love, leaving obvious bruises at the time.
Have you? How universal is parental punishment, for "every living organism on this planet"?
Can we not turn this thread into a corporal punishment thread, which will get it closed? You guys can take that particular topic to the parenting forum instead.
First, y'all are fighting ghosts here, because no one has advocated for no punishment. So there's that.
But, Griffon, let me ask you this. As to your bolded statement.
Have you ever seen another mammal "punish" her offspring? Beyond a quick bark or other admonition to "come back here"? I've seen mammal mothers abandon litters, or rodents put one sick individual out of the nest. But I've never seen a mammal parent beat on an offspring they intend to continue raising, out of a feeling of love, leaving obvious bruises at the time.
Have you? How universal is parental punishment, for "every living organism on this planet"?
bwahahaha
Have you ever seen another mammal kiss their child? Hug their child? You can't compare humans to animals unless thats how you are raising your kids, like animals. smh
I can't believe some people on here are serious or sane hahaha
Have you ever seen another mammal kiss their child? Hug their child? You can't compare humans to animals unless thats how you are raising your kids, like animals. smh
I can't believe some people on here are serious or sane hahaha
Status:
"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
(set 8 days ago)
35,631 posts, read 17,968,125 times
Reputation: 50655
Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTLightning
bwahahaha
Have you ever seen another mammal kiss their child? Hug their child? You can't compare humans to animals unless thats how you are raising your kids, like animals. smh
I can't believe some people on here are serious or sane hahaha
Google "chimp kissing baby" and look through the images. Come back in a few hours when you've seen them all.
Google "chimp kissing baby" and look through the images. Come back in a few hours when you've seen them all.
I can believe chimps do that, but I have better things to do lol so i apologize for that mistake, but I still stand by what I said about not comparing animals to humans unless you are raising animals.
The problem with the "no punishment" model of parenting is that it goes against the basic biological nature of pretty much every living organism on this planet. It’s unnatural, inefficient (not ineffective but much less effective than the "punishment model") and leads to a greater likelihood that a child will be a maladjusted adult. As STV said, the millennial (my) generation is a perfect example of the utter failure of that style of parenting. This is a fascinating topic that I have done a lot of research on. I don’t want to make this post too long but here is a very brief breakdown on the different “parenting models.” I know this post is still quite long but I think anyone who is interested in parenting methods will find it very interesting.
Most living beings preform/avoid actions based on the consequences of said action. If an action leads to a "good physical outcome" they will do it more. If an action leads to a "bad physical outcome" they will avoid it. No amount of "lesson learned" will be more effective in helping a child avoid a bad behavior over a "bad physical outcome" (punishment) to that behavior.
This is because as much as we humans like to think we are "higher beings" a huge proportion of our actions/decisions are inherently driven by our biology. We may be exponentially more intelligent than all other living beings but we are only marginally better than those beings in the categories of emotional growth/regulation, wisdom and interpersonal intelligence. A perfect example of this are kids. From a purely logical point of view, if you live in a first world country adopting a child is the superior choice over having your own kids in pretty much every way possible. But because most of us go by our biological drive over pure logic, most of us have kids instead of adopting.
I can personally attest that I grew up to be a better adult because my parents that physical consequences for my bad behavior. Please note that “physical punishment” does not equal to child abuse. You can have physical consequences for your kid’s bad behavior that does not cross into the territory of child abuse. Taking away a cell phone/video game/TV/toy for a month is a good example. With that in mind here is a humorous anecdotal story from my life that illustrates the effectiveness of proper discipline.
My wife and I adopted 3 kittens 3 years ago. They were all blank slates as far as behavior since they were very little when we adopted them. My wife and I had very different styles of training them. She was purely following the model of: no physical consequences, being gentle (as far as commands) and trying to talk them into complying. I on the other hand have always been a proponent of the “punishment model.” One example of this is the kitchen counters. That was one place the cats are not allowed because their paws are dirty and could lead to food contamination. My wife would always ask them to get down in a gentle voice, ignore them (thinking that not paying attention to their bad behavior would lead to them stopping) or cradle them in a loving way while taking them down from the counters herself.
On the other hand I had a much stricter method. First, I made sure they understood that being on the counter was wrong. Otherwise, any “punishment” I did would just confuse them, make them sad and make them resent me. So I consistently used the word “no” in a harsh tone with every behavior that they were not allowed to do. After about a month or so they understood that the kitchen counters were a “not allowed” area. Then I followed that up with progressive discipline. The steps were the following: Ask them to get down in a strict tone of voice. If they didn’t get off after 5-6 commands I would physically take them down. I had two methods of carrying my cats. One involved a very gentle way of holding them (affection) and the other was a firmer (but caused no pain/discomfort) hold for making them stop doing bad things. So I would use the firm hold to get them off the counter. If they kept getting back on a few times, I would put a tiny bit of water in my hand and flick it at them (the harshest punishment). It took me 2 years of doing that consistently to properly train the cats to not get on the counter. Now 95% of the time they get down off the counter within the first 1-2 commands and they barely get on there in the first place!
It’s been 3 years since we got them and their behavior towards me and my wife based on our disciple style is a stark difference. I should also point out that all 3 cats love both of us. Meaning, me being stricter didn’t make them resent me. In fact, they are more like dogs. They all actively seek out physical affection from both of us 24/7. However, the difference in the “respect level” is night and day. Even in areas that I never trained them on; they instinctively know the “right thing to do.” For example, when my wife is eating food they will jump on the table and try to put their mouth in her food. When I eat they know not to come close to my food even though I have NEVER trained them in that aspect.
Kids are the same way. Raise them with the punishment model and they will not only be more stable adults but will also instinctively know the “proper course of actions” in situations they have never dealt with. Raise them using the no consequence model and you will get a generation of spoiled, entitled snowflakes who think they can do no wrong.
Again, no one said "no punishment." I didn't read the rest of your post about your kittens. I have three adult children who are productive members of society. They were punished when they needed to be punished. If they accidentally dropped something and broke it, they didn't intend to break it and they were not punished. If they intentionally broke it, they were punished. If they had been told not to touch it and they did anyway, they would be punished because they intentionally disobeyed. See the difference? Sometimes talking and explaining why we don't do certain things is more effective than any kind of punishment. What we want in the end is for children to understand what behavior is appropriate, right?
The grandfather did something stupid, yes. He will be paying for that mistake the rest of his life. All I am saying is we should have some compassion. Sitting in jail the rest of his life won't punish him any more than he is already punishing himself.
As I have said before, I do disagree with a lawsuit against the cruise line.
The grandfather did something stupid, yes. He will be paying for that mistake the rest of his life. All I am saying is we should have some compassion. Sitting in jail the rest of his life won't punish him any more than he is already punishing himself.
As I have said before, I do disagree with a lawsuit against the cruise line.
If it gets to the point where it goes to trial and he ends up serving jail time (probably not lifelong, maybe a couple years)... That was the choice he made. He's been offered probation, no jail time serve if he just admitted that his own reckless actions caused the death of the little girl. He (and the family) are still pointing the finger at the cruise line.
Personally I've just been depleted of any compassion for the grandfather because I don't believe him or his deflections. Like the pp stated, I think he is a dumbass... who's refusing to fully own up his recklessness and I think it's cruel to drag that family along.
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