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Women have been given essentially unbridled freedom over the last several decades in the Western world. Do you think they've exercised that freedom responsibly? Has our society as a whole benefited from this?
I see someone else responded at length, but in short:
It wasn't all that long ago that this was the case here in the United States, minus the burkas.
There was a thread not that long ago where women of a certain age recalled not being able to buy a car without their husband's permission, even when it was their own money, or being able to open a credit card in their own name. That was the 1970s, not centuries ago.
And don't forget that up until the late 1970s, rape was forced intercourse by a man with a female not his wife. In other words, if he forced his wife to have sex, it was not rape. Then it became rape if they were separated/no longer living together. FINALLY, it became the law that no one can force sex upon another.
This isn't even fifty years. So before we swoon and get the vapors over those terrible OTHER cultures, we should remember that they are US.
Every time we buy a house (in three different states so far, most recently this year), they list my husband first, even when I'm the one buying the house and he's just also on the title.
My old bank wouldn't let me change the address on our joint account because I wasn't the "primary" account holder. It's a joint account, they decided he was primary.
Some people call me Mrs. Hubby's last name and seem to have real trouble understanding that my last name is different.
[quote=whatIfigured;55841227]Women have been given essentially unbridled freedom over the last several decades in the Western world.
TRANSLATION:
'something approaching equality'
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatIfigured
Do you think they've exercised that freedom responsibly? Has our society as a whole benefited from this?
Of course.
Rest assured, I understand that the rights-are-a-zero-sum-game crowd - ie, those who confuse an erosion of their privilege with oppression - can't handle it. Too bad.
I don't know what you mean by "unbridled," but women have earned, struggled, and fought for (as opposed to "been given") the same rights and freedoms as any man in most "Western" nations, and many non-Western ones. I'm also not sure what you mean when you wonder if women have "exercised that freedom responsibly" so I can't really speak on that because i'm unsure of what you are asking.
I cam tell you this: In the West and everywhere else where women have achieved freedom and equality with men, it has been an overwhelmingly positive change for society. In the West, this cultural shift improved our society and culture in countless ways because half the population achieved full participation and consideration in the political, social, economic, and intellectual life of society. I cannot imagine how much we would regress in every way were we to suddenly bar half the population from full participation in society. I strongly believe that any society can only be free and just if all its people, despite differences in gender, race, socioeconomic class, and so on, are considered equal under the law.
The fundamental freedoms Western women earned in the 20th century allowed them to become leaders and pioneers in many academic fields; to shape economic, political and social policy in positive ways; to be able to work in any field they choose and earn an income through their labor; to have their voices heard in order to create a more just society; to become less vulnerable to misogyny and sexual violence; to have, for the most part, bodily autonomy and the ability to explore their sexuality and identity in a healthy and positive way; to seek fulfillment and pursue happiness as any human should be allowed to do. The list goes on and on.
At the same time, expanded rights and freedoms for women almost always lead to expanded rights and freedoms for men, as well as for marginalized populations. When women are free and equal before the law, any affirmation of woman's fundamental rights and freedoms is also an affirmation of those same rights and freedoms for men. There are countless examples of how what you refer to as "unbridled" freedom for women in the West has benefitted society as a whole. I can't even begin to list them.
Well I wish you could, because unlike everything else you've said, that might actually address my question. You've offered a number of platitudes about justice, freedom, and equality, but nothing to explain how these ideas have been beneficial to our society overall. Are our families stronger? Are we raising more well-adjusted children? Are we healthier? Are we happier? Every indication is that we are not, on any count.
I'm particularly curious to understand, given the statistics on abortion, illegitimacy rates, and STD infection rates in the US, how giving women the freedom to "explore their sexuality" has been net positive.
Yeah, that's kinda the problem that I have with feminism; it assumed my freedom wasn't mine in the first place & that I was a victim; waiting for something to be given to me.
How empowering (sarc).
It occurs to me that if an entire nation of women truly felt enslaved; that there wouldn't be much an entire army of men could have done about it. Maybe they also saw value in their rich traditions & cultural history?
What on earth makes you think you ever had any freedom "in the first place"? The freedom you enjoy, and feel so entitled to, only exists because white men created the whole idea, and have defended it for you. Do you not understand this?
Well I wish you could, because unlike everything else you've said, that might actually address my question. You've offered a number of platitudes about justice, freedom, and equality, but nothing to explain how these ideas have been beneficial to our society overall. Are our families stronger? Are we raising more well-adjusted children? Are we healthier? Are we happier? Every indication is that we are not, on any count.
I'm particularly curious to understand, given the statistics on abortion, illegitimacy rates, and STD infection rates in the US, how giving women the freedom to "explore their sexuality" has been net positive.
Yes, put those women back in their box already. They're destroying the fabric of this country with all the exploring of their sexuality. Only men should be allowed that freedom!
What on earth makes you think you ever had any freedom "in the first place"? The freedom you enjoy, and feel so entitled to, only exists because white men created the whole idea, and have defended it for you. Do you not understand this?
Men created the concept of freedom for women and graciously bestowed it upon them?
Womens' freedom is not, and never has been men's to give or take away.. just as men's freedom is not women's to give or take from them.
Are you a male supremacist? You definitely sound like one.
Men created the concept of freedom for women and graciously bestowed it upon them?
Womens' freedom is not, and never has been men's to give or take away.. just as men's freedom is not women's to give or take from them.
I'm not even sure how to respond to you. It's like talking to a child. This may literally be the most naive thing I've ever heard. Do you not understand what would become of you if you didn't have men protecting you? You would be a slave and have ZERO freedoms!
Well. How very noble of them. Now if they could work on the problem of dismembering critics of the Saudi royal family.
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