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I'm not even sure how to respond to you. It's like talking to a child. This may literally be the most naive thing I've ever heard. Do you not understand what would become of you if you didn't have men protecting you? You would be a slave and have ZERO freedoms!
Sounds like you've been watching too much Game of Thrones.
It isn't "men protecting me" that ensures that I have now freedom as a Western woman, it is the rule of law, supported by a democratic government (that was up until recently headed by a woman in my country), and a free press. The fact that I can participate in all of this is because of womens' suffrage (hard won by women, might I remind you, not men) and I am, along with others, able to choose the people who are going to keep me and others secure.
It is right-thinking men and women in government, the military, and society in general who ensure we keep our freedoms as women.
This is not present fo the most part in Saudi Arabia.
It's men who for the most part do the enslaving & trafficking in this world. Now they want a pat on the back for personally not being all about the slavery and graciously bestowing freedom on the opposite sex, like it's theirs to give in the first place? It never was. Men took womens' freedom in the first place in Saudi - it was never theirs to take or give. Get that into your head. Just because men are the ones to take away women's freedom in the first place, it doesn't give them the right to own women or curtail freedom. That's not how it works.
If I create a problem for you, and then solve it for you, it doesn't mean I own you or you owe me.
Last edited by Carly1983; 08-08-2019 at 10:17 AM..
You kidding me right now? Sexist much? Toxic masculinity in your repertoire? Refrain from the blanket statements please. Many men live live in silence of catlike women who love to draw blood, believe me.
Crime statistics disagree with you entirely and support what I said, which is partly why I said it, but nice try.
Sounds like you've been watching too much Game of Thrones.
It isn't "men protecting me" that ensures that I have now freedom as a Western woman, it is the rule of law, supported by a democratic government (that was up until recently headed by a woman in my country), and a free press. The fact that I can participate in all of this is because of womens' suffrage (hard won by women, might I remind you, not men) and I am, along with others, able to choose the people who are going to keep me and others secure.
It is right-thinking men and women in government, the military, and society in general who ensure we keep our freedoms as women.
This is not present fo the most part in Saudi Arabia.
It's men who for the most part do the enslaving & trafficking in this world. Now they want a pat on the back for personally not being all about the slavery and graciously bestowing freedom on the opposite sex, like it's theirs to give in the first place? It never was. Men took womens' freedom in the first place in Saudi - it was never theirs to take or give. Get that into your head. Just because men are the ones to take away women's freedom in the first place, it doesn't give them the right to own women or curtail freedom. That's not how it works.
It is men who have created, implemented, and defended the ideas you speak of. Freedom, democratic government, a free press, and the rule of law. Women's suffrage came to fruition only because it was ultimately supported by men; there was no violent overthrow of any government by women who demanded it.
Whether you accept it or not, that is exactly how it works. The freedom you feel so entitled to only exists because men choose to defend it on your behalf. Again, if you can't understand this simple concept, I'm not sure what more to say to you. It would be beneath me to continue.
It is men who have created, implemented, and defended the ideas you speak of. Freedom, democratic government, a free press, and the rule of law. Women's suffrage came to fruition only because it was ultimately supported by men; there was no violent overthrow of any government by women who demanded it.
Whether you accept it or not, that is exactly how it works. The freedom you feel so entitled to only exists because men choose to defend it on your behalf. Again, if you can't understand this simple concept, I'm not sure what more to say to you. It would be beneath me to continue.
Yes, definitely beneath you, please do stop. I'm just a silly girl who has trouble grasping your concepts.
There were the bad men who enslaved women, and kept the women in their family cowering through violence & intimidation, but this master-slave dynamic between men and women that you seem to think is the norm across all societies, until men one day had the good grace to end it, well wasn't. The reality was more nuanced:
1. Women are and always have been integral to society. When they stop participating in it, and they start to protest and withdraw their cooperation, things fall apart. Men know this and cannot continue for too long without women's cooperation. This was part of the process of gaining womens' suffrage, at least in the UK. Women also did demand the suffrage in non-peaceful ways... involving violence at times, on both sides (contrary to your assertion.)
2. It isn't true that women have not been involved in any way in refining the ideas of and furthering the causes of democracy, free journalism, the law or suffrage. If you do some research you'll find women involved in all of these areas throughout history. Women practised law in Ancient Rome. Educated women were journalists under male pen-names. Female Enlightenment philosophers such as Mary Wollstonecraft advocated for freedom, equality and democracy for men and women (to give a few examples) and helped to refine those concepts for the modern age.
It is perhaps also unrealistic to envision that only a man was capable of dreaming up democracy (in fact, some studies find that modern men are actually less egalitarian & democratic in their inclinations than women are). The fact is, men were educated in Ancient Greece, women were not (although who knows whether democracy pre-dates Ancient Greece and was originated in some pre-Christian matriarchal society, but just was not recorded). Men were more likely to have the education to write their ideas (and womens' ideas) down, women typically did not.
Woman was typically assigned the role of the helpmate, that didn't mean she never had any good ideas or helped to implement or refine them. What do they say, behind every great man... There are many examples of this throughout history of men taking credit for ideas and work that originated with women because they could (more examples here), and because it was socially acceptable to do so. Men have historically relied on women's cooperation, ideas and work in many ways throughout history, often with little credit given where it's due. Hence your rather sexist, but obviously sincerely held belief that only a man could have originated democracy, freedom, free press and the rule of law. There were women involved in the development of these ideas all along, albeit pushed into the background and ignored, but still involved and having their work passed off as someone else's sometimes.
That's not to say that some abusive males don't enslave, use and terrorise the women in their power/in their family, and that women haven't benefited from male advocates, but for the most part we have had to fight for our own rights throughout history and withdraw cooperation (and use violence where necessary) when men chose to thwart those freedoms we are and were entitled to.
You men are not our benevolent overloads, although by your choice of words around me feeling "an entitlement" to my freedom as a woman, it is clear you personally do fancy yourself to be ;-)
Last edited by Carly1983; 08-10-2019 at 04:58 PM..
Geez. At least they have to wear a damn Burka if they go places. Honestly that place is the most degrading place for a woman I would have to say. Crazy people over there.
Geez. At least they have to wear a damn Burka if they go places. Honestly that place is the most degrading place for a woman I would have to say. Crazy people over there.
Since you clearly don't get it, in one, women are degrading themselves. In the other, the woman is wearing that symbol of oppression because men told her to.
For real, I don't get what's so hard to understand here. I'm on the side of freedom. I believe women should be allowed to go out, express themselves freely, get drunk, pass out in parking lots, and risk being taken advantage of. As long as their harming themselves and no one else, it's ok.
Whatifigured won't understand any of that. From what he has written in previous posts, he sees women as pet like creatures with masters that have been elevated to human status at some point by gracious males. We should be policed and kept indoors, for our own good as well as to preserve the fabric of society ;-)
Sounds like a move to Saudi Arabia is in order for him, they definitely have the right idea over there
For real, I don't get what's so hard to understand here. I'm on the side of freedom. I believe women should be allowed to go out, express themselves freely, get drunk, pass out in parking lots, and risk being taken advantage of. As long as their harming themselves and no one else, it's ok.
Again, I just want to understand how this makes us a better, stronger society, or does that not matter? Are the behaviors you mention more likely to produce more harmonious marriages, well-adjusted children, stronger communities, etc?
Since you clearly don't get it, in one, women are degrading themselves. In the other, the woman is wearing that symbol of oppression because men told her to.
You call it a symbol of oppression, but others consider it a symbol of fidelity and commitment.
And that's my point exactly. Absent the guidance of men, when given freedom, women have chosen to degrade themselves. The photo I offered illustrates the typical "college experience" for a western woman. This is to say nothing about their sexual behavior. How is a nation to flourish with a female population that is morally bankrupt?
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