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Here is what I think went down, if anyone agrees (then I will take a breather until tox reports come back):
They were originally planning on hiking Hite Cove Trail, which is less strenuous and more popular than Savage-Lundy. I think SL and Devil's Gulch was an impulse decision, or they would have brought more than 1 bladder of water (3 liters).
SL is challenging (per description of the forest service, it is a difficult trail). By the time they reached DG, they had hiked 8.5 miles (not super long, but a challenging trail, with limited water and heat it is long):
Hite Cove (their car was parked near the SNF gate, which opens into HC) = 3.6 mi trail which loops into SL
Savage Lundy = 2.6 mi
SL to Devil's Gulch = 2.3 mi (authorities say they went 8.5 miles, so that is the only number that works since that is where they were found).
So with a 17 mile round trip in the making, it makes sense they would try to have saved "a little" water.
I think Dad succumbed first. He was older than her, carrying baby, and somewhat out of shape from pics that have been posed. Perhaps most of the water was given to dad. I think dog was tethered (just my opinion, no verification of this yet). I am not sure when baby succumbed, but I agree with others that if baby had already died, she would not have been in carrier.
I think they were found in a barren area - had there been water (algae infested or not), they would have drank (no human has ever died from toxic algae).
They overestimated the hike - went farther than they had intended and it was more than dad could handle, and they used up most of the water, leaving mom and baby to succumb, as well.
You mean underestimated the hike.
Here’s the thing, if were hiking and my husband collapsed I would go for help I wouldn’t sit there with him and wait to die. I think whatever happened happened to all of them at the same time.
Seriously? Plenty of people on that thread suspected foul play!
Most of the suspicions were along the lines of him deliberately abandoning her, or thoughtlessly dragging her out on a hike in conditions she couldn't handle. One or two people may have thought he may have drugged her (was there ever a toxicology report from that case? I don't think so.) But what other "foul play" could there have been, with no wounds? Same as in this case. No sign of foul play, yet here, some are suspecting it.
Even investigators considered foul play in this case, but someone posted, that that was because they're required to, if there's no other potential cause evident. But if that's true, why didn't investigators in the other case automatically check out that possibility? Because the potential perp was a cop? Why was it dismissed as heat stroke so quickly, on the testimony of a cop with a history of lying?
There doesn't seem to be a uniform standard for handling cases where heat stroke is involved.
Here is what I think went down, if anyone agrees (then I will take a breather until tox reports come back):
They were originally planning on hiking Hite Cove Trail, which is less strenuous and more popular than Savage-Lundy. I think SL and Devil's Gulch was an impulse decision, or they would have brought more than 1 bladder of water (3 liters).
SL is challenging (per description of the forest service, it is a difficult trail). By the time they reached DG, they had hiked 8.5 miles (not super long, but a challenging trail, with limited water and heat it is long):
Hite Cove (their car was parked near the SNF gate, which opens into HC) = 3.6 mi trail which loops into SL
Savage Lundy = 2.6 mi
SL to Devil's Gulch = 2.3 mi (authorities say they went 8.5 miles, so that is the only number that works since that is where they were found).
So with a 17 mile round trip in the making, it makes sense they would try to have saved "a little" water.
I think Dad succumbed first. He was older than her, carrying baby, and somewhat out of shape from pics that have been posed. Perhaps most of the water was given to dad. I think dog was tethered (just my opinion, no verification of this yet). I am not sure when baby succumbed, but I agree with others that if baby had already died, she would not have been in carrier.
I think they were found in a barren area - had there been water (algae infested or not), they would have drank (no human has ever died from toxic algae).
They overestimated the hike - went farther than they had intended and it was more than dad could handle, and they used up most of the water, leaving mom and baby to succumb, as well.
This makes a certain amount of sense, but it was reported, that he'd researched the SL trail the day before. We might be able to assume he/they already knew the Hite's Cove trail (they were living near the trail head, weren't they?), but maybe not the SL trail. IDK.
Most of the suspicions were along the lines of him deliberately abandoning her, or thoughtlessly dragging her out on a hike in conditions she couldn't handle. One or two people may have thought he may have drugged her (was there ever a toxicology report from that case? I don't think so.) But what other "foul play" could there have been, with no wounds? Same as in this case. No sign of foul play, yet here, some are suspecting it.
Even investigators considered foul play in this case, but someone posted, that that was because they're required to, if there's no other potential cause evident. But if that's true, why didn't investigators in the other case automatically check out that possibility? Because the potential perp was a cop? Why was it dismissed as heat stroke so quickly, on the testimony of a cop with a history of lying?
There doesn't seem to be a uniform standard for handling cases where heat stroke is involved.
A murder investigation was opened briefly early on. Because investigators are still finding the case baffling, I don’t think it’s as clear cut a case of heat stroke is that woman’s was. They find it unusual that all of them would have died at the same time, especially the dog. It very well may turn out to be heat stroke, but I think this case was handled differently than other similar cases. They don’t normally take water toxicology samples and things like that in heat stroke cases either. This one was unusual. If it is heat stroke of course.
Here’s the thing, if were hiking and my husband collapsed I would go for help I wouldn’t sit there with him and wait to die. I think whatever happened happened to all of them at the same time.
Obviously, not. Nor would I. She was found farther up the trail which indicates to me she was going for help. Granted, she was still pretty close by (30 yards).
I'd venture to say that the vast majority of us who HAVE hiked in hot weather--and I definitely include myself in that number--have never experienced this, either.
I would wager at some point you have, maybe not even hiking, and didn't know it. The same goes for altitude sickness. It's subtle, until it's not. And it can be extremely dangerous if you don't take action in time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey
One might have been overcome by heat exhaustion but not all of them at once.
Why not? And what's "all at once" mean?
All of them were experiencing the exact same environmental factors, so it would make much less sense to think that there were different levels of exposure at work and expect radically different effects between them. There was a story not too far back of a hiker who died locally in the desert and one of the rescuers needed medical attention during the recovery. You put the same people, into similar situations, and the results are unshockingly the same. These things can sneak up on people and become a serious danger before the victim even realizes what's happening.
What's maybe most disturbing about this conversation is the contingent of posters who don't seem to believe that simple dehydration can be the catalyst for death. When you hike in extreme weather conditions, you almost need to force water into yourself to maintain a good safety margin. The mere fact that these people apparently still had water indicates to me they were trying to ration it. We'll never know the motivation for that but the one thing which is absolute fact is, that however much water was left in their pack, was that much less water that they 100% definitely didn't drink.
Obviously, not. Nor would I. She was found farther up the trail which indicates to me she was going for help. Granted, she was still pretty close by (30 yards).
Who's to say she didn't walk miles before returning to that spot if indeed the husband/baby/dog were assumed to have been stationery at that point and she was off seeking help? Maybe she wasn't with them because at that point, she could no longer figure out where they were. All the more reason to expect that the adults here were overcome with heat to the point of making bad decisions under a spell of delirium.
If it turns out this is a case of anything sinister or bizarre, rather than the obvious, I will gladly return to the thread and say I was wrong. But for now, it seems rather clear this was two people who overestimated their abilities, underestimated the hike and didn't know what to do before it was too late to do anything without outside intervention. It's a sad story, but a lesson to be more mindful of how fragile our bodies can be.
When you hike in extreme weather conditions, you almost need to force water into yourself to maintain a good safety margin.
This is a good point. One should be taking water frequently. Don’t wait until thirsty. Don’t wait an hour to take that first drink.
Last edited by hikernut; 08-29-2021 at 11:28 AM..
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