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It's not always so clear cut though.
I was waitressing for a few months when my kids were young just to have something to do and to make a little money for our vacations.
I had a big party, table of 10-14, don't remember how many.
They get up and leave at closing time. I go over to pick up my tip, and there's a huge pile of vomit in the middle of the table. Now I don't know which one did it, and I have no idea which ones were drunk, they were all loud and rowdy. They were passing drinks back and forth, who knows who drank what, compared to who ordered what. If it was ordered, I served it.
Exactly. And IMO to hold someone legally responsible, there has to be legal parameters. You can't just use a vague "showing signs of intoxication". And again, if I'm not driving there should be no reason I can't be intoxicated. I would show signs of intoxication after 2 shots.
Exactly. And IMO to hold someone legally responsible, there has to be legal parameters. You can't just use a vague "showing signs of intoxication". And again, if I'm not driving there should be no reason I can't be intoxicated. I would show signs of intoxication after 2 shots.
Dram shop acts establish "legal parameters".
A question or two:
1. Do you think a bar that fails to ask for ID and serves someone under 21 years of age should be responsible in any way when that underage person causes a severe accident immediately after leaving the bar?
2. Do you think when a bar serves a customer six drinks in an hour that they should be able to surmise that that person has a blood alcohol level rendering them too intoxicated to drive a car?
3. Do you agree that the profit motive might cause some bars to forget safety issues and simply serve customers as many drinks as they want?
Questions 1-3 get at the very reason why dram shop laws exist. Its not enough just to say the person consuming alcohol ought to exercise "personal responsibility".
Of course, some situations are ambiguous as the preceding poster described. That's why we have jury trials in our system and let juries decide legal liability.
And again, if I'm not driving there should be no reason I can't be intoxicated. I would show signs of intoxication after 2 shots.
Your word that you aren't driving wouldn't be good enough. People lie all the time trying to get more to alcohol from bartenders by claiming they aren't driving.
Another aspect of this is equally disturbing...lets say the ultra drunk person leaves the bar, but does not want to endanger himself or others, so he leaves his car and walks home, police can still charge him with 'public intoxication'!!
What do they want people to do if they get this drunk at a bar/club?! No driving, walking home is also out...?
1. Do you think a bar that fails to ask for ID and serves someone under 21 years of age should be responsible in any way when that underage person causes a severe accident immediately after leaving the bar?
2. Do you think when a bar serves a customer six drinks in an hour that they should be able to surmise that that person has a blood alcohol level rendering them too intoxicated to drive a car?
3. Do you agree that the profit motive might cause some bars to forget safety issues and simply serve customers as many drinks as they want?
Questions 1-3 get at the very reason why dram shop laws exist. Its not enough just to say the person consuming alcohol ought to exercise "personal responsibility".
Of course, some situations are ambiguous as the preceding poster described. That's why we have jury trials in our system and let juries decide legal liability.
1. Yes
2. If it is known that person is driving after they leave, and that person was only served by one bartender, like in a small town bar with 4 people there, probably. Six drinks in an hour in a crowded sports bar during a football game, no.
3. No. The "bar" isn't serving the drinks, the wait staff/bartenders are most of the time. I was a bartender before, I didn't hope people drank more so the bar could make more money.
How about sporting events and concerts? Should the concession stand people or the guy at the baseball game selling beer in the stands be responsible for the thousands of fans who get drunk at baseball and football games and then drive?
Exactly. And IMO to hold someone legally responsible, there has to be legal parameters. You can't just use a vague "showing signs of intoxication". And again, if I'm not driving there should be no reason I can't be intoxicated. I would show signs of intoxication after 2 shots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl
1. Yes
2. If it is known that person is driving after they leave, and that person was only served by one bartender, like in a small town bar with 4 people there, probably. Six drinks in an hour in a crowded sports bar during a football game, no.
3. No. The "bar" isn't serving the drinks, the wait staff/bartenders are most of the time. I was a bartender before, I didn't hope people drank more so the bar could make more money.
How about sporting events and concerts? Should the concession stand people or the guy at the baseball game selling beer in the stands be responsible for the thousands of fans who get drunk at baseball and football games and then drive?
Your answer to #2 places the entire onus on the customer. Dram shop laws are not meant to protect customers, they are meant to protect innocent third parties who may become involved in accidents with intoxicated people. I think there should be assumption that customers are driving to the bar and will be driving home unless it is otherwise made known to the employees at the bar. The sports bar in your example chooses to do business in a certain way. It chooses to be large and to serve many customers. If it wants to do this volume of business I submit it has a duty commensurate with its size to look out for those customers. Alcohol is a drug and the bar is serving customers a drug. We would expect a pharmacy not to give overdoses of medication to its customers wouldn't we? No one should be served six drinks in a hour. If one is served that many drinks and they are consumed, it is clear they are intoxicated.
With respect to #3. The law has always had a rule that acts of employees in the course and scope of their employment are imputed to the business. A business is a non-living entity and can only act through its employees and agents. I have been to plenty of bars in my day and please forgive my cynicism. What does a mixed drink cost today in a bar? About $7-$10 plus tip to the server? My experience has been one of being repeatedly asked if I wanted another drink and never getting a question about how I got to the bar or whether I was driving, etc. There is a huge profit motive to get customers to consume more alcohol.
I also think there is an argument to be made that the cost of alcohol ought to reflect some of the cost of injuries that result due to intoxication. If such costs are imposed upon those running establishments that serve alcohol, the argument becomes that costs are properly distributed in a capitalist system. Those serving alcohol and those providing them insurance are under pressure to do the work more carefully and in a manner that fewer intoxicated persons will be served.
We may be getting a little off topic here. However, part of preventing drunk driving is to put some of the blame on those who provide alcohol to those who cause accidents. More than 10,000 people die in drunk driving accidents in America every year.
If it is known that person is driving after they leave, and that person was only served by one bartender, like in a small town bar with 4 people there, probably.
In what universe is six drinks an hour okay? Unless they're extremely weak drinks, that's alcohol poisoning territory.
Here's another complication. Even if it is somehow "known" that the drinker isn't driving home from the bar, the bar can still be held legally liable if the person walks home and then proceeds to get behind the wheel. And again, drunks are notorious liars. No one with half a brain is going to take their word when they say they aren't driving.
As far as concession stand people or "guys at baseball games selling beer in the stands," they shouldn't be serving to visually intoxicated people. That's the legal standard — visibly intoxicated.
Last edited by Metlakatla; 02-03-2022 at 12:06 PM..
Another aspect of this is equally disturbing...lets say the ultra drunk person leaves the bar, but does not want to endanger himself or others, so he leaves his car and walks home, police can still charge him with 'public intoxication'!!
What do they want people to do if they get this drunk at a bar/club?! No driving, walking home is also out...?
Public intoxication isn't nearly as serious as driving while intoxicated.
Yeah, back then, driving drunk was not like it is today, especially if you were driving locally.
I can so see a cop telling you to park it and that they would be checking on the car to make sure it stayed there, if not, they were coming to get you.
I got pulled over when I was younger in the next town over from my work town which was 10 miles from home. They always ask where are you going, this wasn't on my way home, told him stopping at so and so for food after work. The cop pulled me over because I went to the right too soon to hit a jug handle but it was on the shoulder, by maybe 20 feet.
He got me out of the car, walking the line. I passed. I asked if he wanted me to do anything else like recite/sing Blondie's "Rapture," he said no, so I went on my way to Trenton which was an hour away. I believe that night, I'm not sure how I even got home. I swore if I did make it home ok, I would never drink and drive again. I didn't get into an accident or get pulled over some how, made it home, never drank and drove again. My son was about 3 so it was in the 80's. I think I stopped going down there to dance.
Wonder if everyone here understood that bolded sentence .
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