Do I need a House Inspector or something else? (Allen: attorney, home builders)

[iquery]

Background: I'm building a home in Allen, TX. My builder just recently started framing my house when we discovered that an error was made when pouring our slab foundation. A portion of our framing currently sits over the foundation of our patio (which sits 4" lower than the main foundation). The builder tells me that, despite the fact that the patio foundation is 4" lower than the main foundation, it is sufficient to support the weight of the house.

The builder is currently writing up a report for the fix they will implement. Although my builder has a good reputation for quality and customer satisfaction, I would feel better if I could get a second opinion on their proposed fix.

I had already started my hunt for a home inspector but now I think I will need one with more-than-average expertise in home foundations.

So my questions are:
1) Do I need a home inspector or do I need some other type of inspector/engineer entirely?
2) Any recommendations for this type of inspector or engineer?

I'm a little frantic and not sure who to contact at this point.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[SouthernBelleInUtah]

I think you need a foundation engineer.

[Rakin]

Originally Posted by SouthernBelleInUtah

I think you need a foundation engineer.

And a good one is Jeff Crannell (972) 691-6633

[FalconheadWest]

A home inspector is not going to be helpful in this situation as they are visual inspectors. You need an engineer.

[nsumner]

I would too suggest that you start with the engineer that Rakin recommended. However, I would also follow up with the city to send their own engineer to determine if it is up to code.

Naima

[escanlan]

Originally Posted by iquery

Background: I'm building a home in Allen, TX. My builder just recently started framing my house when we discovered that an error was made when pouring our slab foundation. A portion of our framing currently sits over the foundation of our patio (which sits 4" lower than the main foundation). The builder tells me that, despite the fact that the patio foundation is 4" lower than the main foundation, it is sufficient to support the weight of the house.

The builder is currently writing up a report for the fix they will implement. Although my builder has a good reputation for quality and customer satisfaction, I would feel better if I could get a second opinion on their proposed fix.

I had already started my hunt for a home inspector but now I think I will need one with more-than-average expertise in home foundations.

So my questions are:
1) Do I need a home inspector or do I need some other type of inspector/engineer entirely?
2) Any recommendations for this type of inspector or engineer?

I'm a little frantic and not sure who to contact at this point.

Thanks in advance for any help!

First off because of the issue you have I would recommend a Professional Engineer (PE). The PE will review the current plans, the proposed correction and advise of a proper correction. I always tell people when you are in that situation to hire a PE because if the builder wants to argue they would lose against a good PE. I would recommend the following PE. He has been a PE since 1969 and has a wide background including residential construction and foundation issues. He is an extremely intelligent person and can deal well with builders. He also happens to be located there in Allen.

K.M. Kirk
Texas PE License #73153
972-333-9400 (cell)
972-359-6584 (office)
Independent Registered Professional Engineering Consultant

Generally footers for patios, if present at all, are not as extensive as those used for the home itself. The footer is the concrete beam poured around the exterior of the home. To determine if it can properly hold the weight is a call that requires a Licensed Engineer and not an Inspector.

The support of that wall is not the only issue with this condition. The purpose of that 4" rise is to keep the sill plate above any point where water can enter. The sill plate is the bottom wood member that the vertical studs are tied to. The sill plate is then bolted down to the top of the footer. If the sill plate is allowed to sit at the same level as the patio surface then water can enter weepholes in the brick and cause damage to it over time. Weepholes are the openings at the bottom of the lowest row of bricks that allow any moisture to drain out that might collect behind the brick. If the wall is a siding material then the siding should be 4" - 6" above grade as well to prevent damage to it. If the sill is allowed to rest on the patio surface then the siding must also rest on it to cover the sill plate. Hence you have the condition you don't want.

If it has already been framed that way then the framer is not performing the job of notifying the builder that a problem existed before they framed it. I would have expected the framer to have caught that error before he hammered the first nail. The fact that the builder did not catch a potential error with the foundation forms would have me wondering what other potential errors are there? When you speak to the Engineer I would ask what their charge is to perform a complete review of work performed and planned from the foundation through the framing stages at the least. You might well want to have the Engineer perform further phased inspections during the entire build.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out. I would be interested to know what the proposed correction was going to be?

[escanlan]

Originally Posted by FalconheadWest

A home inspector is not going to be helpful in this situation as they are visual inspectors. You need an engineer.

As a general statement for all Inspectors that is incorrect, whether or not they are a licensed PE. Unfortunately as a statement for some Inspectors that is correct. The 'visual inspectors" are the ones that walk around a home and point out the issues the client themselves can see. When they do find an actual issue it is still a visual statement with no explanation. Good Inspectors call the "visual inspectors" a "Minimalist Inspector". The "Minimalist Inspector" is also usually the cheap Inspector.

[iquery]

Thank you, everyone, for your advice and recommendations. I feel a little better now that I have a course of action.

I'll start my hunt for a PE tomorrow morning. Hopefully, one of the engineers recommended will be able to schedule me in, on short notice.

Originally Posted by escanlan

Generally footers for patios, if present at all, are not as extensive as those used for the home itself.

The patio footings (to my untrained eyes) seemed to look the same as the rest of the house. Also the patio foundation is continuous with the foundation of the main house and was poured at the same time. The only real difference seems to be that it is a thinner slab of concrete and sits lower.

Originally Posted by escanlan

The support of that wall is not the only issue with this condition. The purpose of that 4" rise is to keep the sill plate above any point where water can enter. ... . If the sill plate is allowed to sit at the same level as the patio surface then water can enter weepholes in the brick and cause damage to it over time. ... Hence you have the condition you don't want.

The construction manager did mention the possibility of simply extending the wood frame (downward) so that it would sit level with the patio surface. When I expressed concern about possible water damage in the future, he seemed skeptical about the possibility but said that he would wait for engineer's report (on proposed fixes).

Originally Posted by escanlan

If it has already been framed that way then the framer is not performing the job of notifying the builder that a problem existed before they framed it. I would have expected the framer to have caught that error before he hammered the first nail. The fact that the builder did not catch a potential error with the foundation forms would have me wondering what other potential errors are there?

This is my biggest worry right now. No one from the builder's side mentioned this issue until we noticed it. I can't tell if it was truly a surprise to them or if they were trying to fix it quietly before we became aware of the situation.

I spent SO much time researching both home builders and communities before settling on this particular property. Other than hiring a home inspector to check the house before drywall was put up and again before closing, I was fully prepared to trust the builder to build my family a good, solid home. To say that this has put a big dent in our trust would be an understatement...

Thanks again for your advice and referrals. I will definitely keep you posted.

[blueiis]

Originally Posted by escanlan

As a general statement for all Inspectors that is incorrect, whether or not they are a licensed PE. Unfortunately as a statement for some Inspectors that is correct. The 'visual inspectors" are the ones that walk around a home and point out the issues the client themselves can see. When they do find an actual issue it is still a visual statement with no explanation. Good Inspectors call the "visual inspectors" a "Minimalist Inspector". The "Minimalist Inspector" is also usually the cheap Inspector.

This is an absolute TRUE statement! We are discovering roughly 3 months in this house that we had a crappy "visual, minimalist" inspector and it's come back to bite us in the butt We, like many others, trusted our Realtor...apparently her office uses this guy regularly, unfortunately for her clients.

I have since found an Inspector that is very knowledgeable and has helped me tremendously. The difference between them is night and day. I'm sure if we had used this inspector to begin with, we wouldn't be in this house.

PM me if you would like his name (let me clarify that I am talking about a home inspector, not a PE).

[loves2read]

I think you need to send a registered letter to your builder stating your cause of concern as well as one to your city building office--
the inspector for the city SHOULD have caught that mistake before anyone did because the city is supposed to inspect when the forms are laid to verify they are done correctly--
not just to avoid a problem like yours but to check that they are in line with the grading and property boundaries...
and I think you need to check for an attorney because I bet your builder is still going ahead with other aspects of this construction project--isn't he--
are they framing walls or running electric???