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Old 03-14-2011, 10:36 AM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,216 posts, read 8,159,611 times
Reputation: 2037

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I gotta' say it. One of the true pleasures gained arguing with leftists is that each leftist...
And I gotta say, I love arguing with you true, red- blooded Republicans. The world is changing right in front of yours eyes but you still stick with your tired policies as long as you are living comfortably. Ah neo-conservationism....


Quote:
may at will omit facts, inject phony emotion, miss key background points - like the fact that deficits are illegal in Texas etc. and still claim the other guy needs education
Hey I have no problem admitting when I'm incorrect or misinformed, like I did earlier. Can you say the same for yourself?


Quote:
We have large swaths of society that live life with their hands out looking for help near constantly. It's time to trim those numbers.
How large is large and how constant is constant since you don't need no educatin'.

Let me ask you this, if there were no government hand outs, how do you think this will affect society?
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
3,917 posts, read 4,512,068 times
Reputation: 6194
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
So which do you and your husband generally trust more government or business?

As the first world has so successfully proved few things debase culture, effort and success more than serial handouts. The "poor" as a group need to be told the truth. And some of that is that if you can't succeed in the US you would starve to death in many other parts of the world. Working, working hard, staying off dope, drinking in moderation, gaining a useful education are descriptive of good outcomes. Laying around waiting for help is not.

Your last little cheap shot is nonsense. My 3x great grandfather escaped a severe depression in Germany in 1871. He at 13 and penniless, his parents were killed in a house fire, managed to get himself and his little sister who was 6 from Bavaria to Boston to west Texas over the course of 9 months. He worked his butt off every day of his life and died a somewhat wealthy rancher. Everyone in my close family since with one exception has lived hard, worked hard, and done good things with their lives. I am not about to break that chain.

By the way the little sister lived to be 106 years old. I was lucky enough to know her quite well. Her stories about her first dirt floored cabin being an upgrade over the tents she lived in previously and the like were motivating.

We have so many advantages being born in the US. There are exactly zero reasons to be pessimistic and all manner of reasons to be optimistic.
EDS I find that I agree with most of what you say. I too am an immigrant who came to this country with nothing and worked my butt off to get to where I am today. My story is nowhere near as dramatic as that of your great grandfather, I wasnt escaping a depression or war or anything else. Your story merely illustrates what I've always loved about the US...you can achieve almost anything if you are prepared to work hard.
However, I fear that this era is drawing to a close. illegal immigration, outsourcing and a host of other issues are starting to make this path that your ancestor took less and less likely. Take for example the plight of the 99ers...people who have been out of work for two years or more. I dont think this phenomenon is going away anytime soon. In fact I think that we will see more and more stories just like this. Highly educated people who did all the right things and made seemingly all the right choices dragged down to the bottom, and in fact becoming welfare dependent.
Now people like you would say, enough! they should just go find any job and stop leeaching off the government. Easier said than done. Say you are forty. You graduated college 18 years ago, been working middle class professional jobs. Married with kids, bought a house. How can you go and work at McDonalds and make $5.15 per hour and still pay off your mortgage (impossible to sell house), make car payments and all the other costs that come with middle class living? Costs, mind you, that were well within this person's means before the Great Recession?

You have been blessed/fortunate that all your decisions broke the right way, and make no mistake, luck did play a PART in your success, I know people who also owned their own companies, worked their butts off to make it succeed, and ended up losing everything. There but for the grace Of God go I, would be something you wouldnt be remiss to include in your thoughts when making comments on others.
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:52 AM
 
20,225 posts, read 18,486,607 times
Reputation: 17717
Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033 View Post
And I gotta say, I love arguing with you true, red- blooded Republicans. The world is changing right in front of yours eyes but you still stick with your tired policies as long as you are living comfortably. Ah neo-conservationism....


Hey I have no problem admitting when I'm incorrect or misinformed, like I did earlier. Can you say the same for yourself?


How large is large and how constant is constant since you don't need no educatin'.

Let me ask you this, if there were no government hand outs, how do you think this will affect society?
You keep talking about the world changing. What do you mean precisely?

I am proved wrong all the time. The French philosopher Descarte proposed a system de rigor for any philosophy.
Certainty - of facts
Division - each facet/set of facts must be accurate and supportable
Orderliness - no extraneous thought or emotion
Review - do it all again and regularly

I employ Descartes thinking throughout my life. It's an eye-opener for sure.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,216 posts, read 8,159,611 times
Reputation: 2037
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
As the first world has so successfully proved few things debase culture, effort and success more than serial handouts. The "poor" as a group need to be told the truth. And some of that is that if you can't succeed in the US you would starve to death in many other parts of the world. Working, working hard, staying off dope, drinking in moderation, gaining a useful education are descriptive of good outcomes. Laying around waiting for help is not.
I literally almost shat my pants when I read the bolded part. I mean there are no lazy middle class or upper class people who are on drugs, drink too much, and they all earned through working hard. It's only poor people who are dumb and lazy and are waiting around for help.

Were you around for when the time when lower- to solidly middle to upper class people (who in your mind are probably stereotypically hard working and educated) were putting money into mortages for houses they couldn't afford? Those people received assistance when the housing bubble popped.

Were you around when Republicans were hailing low regulation and banks were too big to fail... and they did? Those folks received assistance and had the nerve to gripe about their bonuses but hey they worked and are educated...

Were you around when the tax cuts for the wealthy were about to expire... well we couldn't let those tax cuts expire for the wealthy.... those folks received assistance as well. I guess we'll just wait for that money to trickle down huh?

But hey you said you own a company, you're doing good, f*ck everyone else who is too stupid or lazy to achieve what you have huh? Everything is fine! Go neo-conservatism!
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
3,917 posts, read 4,512,068 times
Reputation: 6194
The problem I find with many conservatives like EDS is that I really dont think they have any idea of what they are REALLY asking for. The typical rant of most conservatives ia always "less taxes! less taxes! Goverment stay out of my life! Let me keep more (preferably all) of my money! anyone else less fortunate is SOL!! This is what the founding fathers wanted! etc etc"
Well I know a country that would be conservatives wet dream...actually I know of several...just about any country in Africa, and most in Asia and South America. The country I hail from Nigeria, does not charge income taxes to most private businesses...the only people who do pay income tax are civil servants and the big multinationals, and maybe the big local firms, but the average small businessman pretty much flies under the radar (unless you run afoul of the local politicians, in which case all hell can be let loose on you)

So, no income taxes, no property taxes, no sales taxes, pretty much nothing to worry about. All great right? well...a few minor details

1) Schools are to put it mildly, a joke, Lets just say that the public schools in Nigeria (where they exist, they are not available everywhere) would make DISD look like a model school district. If you want your kids to have a quality education, better be prepared to cough up serious money for private school or better yet, send them abroad to schools in Europe/USA (something that Texans may have to think about with the school cuts coming also, but thats a whole nother thread). Ditto for higher education.

2) No Police/Fire fighters. Due to the no taxes thing, the police in Nigeria are EXTREMELY poorly paid and as a result are useless as far as fighting crime and defending law and order. You, as a non tax paying rich businessman, will have to hire your own private security company to protect you and your possessions.

3), Healthcare: Due to no taxes, public healthcare is a joke. You better have the funds to go to the expensive private hospitals, or fly your sick ones overseas to better facilities.

4) Jobs for Kids: You will have to employ your kids, or if you have some rich buddies have them hire your kids as a favor to you. It's all about who you know not what you know.

Now since you wont be paying any taxes, I'm sure your income will be MORE than sufficient to cover all these and plenty more that I've not mentioned due to time/space constraints...sounds good no!

This is why I have no problem paying the taxes that are demanded here, because I've seen what can happen when a government leaves its people to the will of the free market...You really should be grateful for what your goverment provides you. It can be a whole lot worse
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:02 AM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,216 posts, read 8,159,611 times
Reputation: 2037
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
You keep talking about the world changing. What do you mean precisely?
The world's economies and socieities. The rise of globalization has spawned many unforseen consequences.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:20 AM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,216 posts, read 8,159,611 times
Reputation: 2037
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
The problem I find with many conservatives like EDS is that I really dont think they have any idea of what they are REALLY asking for. The typical rant of most conservatives ia always "less taxes! less taxes! Goverment stay out of my life! Let me keep more (preferably all) of my money! anyone else less fortunate is SOL!! This is what the founding fathers wanted! etc etc"
Well I know a country that would be conservatives wet dream...actually I know of several...just about any country in Africa, and most in Asia and South America. The country I hail from Nigeria, does not charge income taxes to most private businesses...the only people who do pay income tax are civil servants and the big multinationals, and maybe the big local firms, but the average small businessman pretty much flies under the radar (unless you run afoul of the local politicians, in which case all hell can be let loose on you)

So, no income taxes, no property taxes, no sales taxes, pretty much nothing to worry about. All great right? well...a few minor details

1) Schools are to put it mildly, a joke, Lets just say that the public schools in Nigeria (where they exist, they are not available everywhere) would make DISD look like a model school district. If you want your kids to have a quality education, better be prepared to cough up serious money for private school or better yet, send them abroad to schools in Europe/USA (something that Texans may have to think about with the school cuts coming also, but thats a whole nother thread). Ditto for higher education.

2) No Police/Fire fighters. Due to the no taxes thing, the police in Nigeria are EXTREMELY poorly paid and as a result are useless as far as fighting crime and defending law and order. You, as a non tax paying rich businessman, will have to hire your own private security company to protect you and your possessions.

3), Healthcare: Due to no taxes, public healthcare is a joke. You better have the funds to go to the expensive private hospitals, or fly your sick ones overseas to better facilities.

4) Jobs for Kids: You will have to employ your kids, or if you have some rich buddies have them hire your kids as a favor to you. It's all about who you know not what you know.

Now since you wont be paying any taxes, I'm sure your income will be MORE than sufficient to cover all these and plenty more that I've not mentioned due to time/space constraints...sounds good no!

This is why I have no problem paying the taxes that are demanded here, because I've seen what can happen when a government leaves its people to the will of the free market...You really should be grateful for what your goverment provides you. It can be a whole lot worse
But but but the private sector will take of us? This is America, not Nigeria, our private sector and wealthy will help us if we stop the public spending. Right!?!?!
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Old 03-14-2011, 12:37 PM
 
20,225 posts, read 18,486,607 times
Reputation: 17717
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
EDS I find that I agree with most of what you say. I too am an immigrant who came to this country with nothing and worked my butt off to get to where I am today. My story is nowhere near as dramatic as that of your great grandfather, I wasnt escaping a depression or war or anything else. Your story merely illustrates what I've always loved about the US...you can achieve almost anything if you are prepared to work hard.
However, I fear that this era is drawing to a close. illegal immigration, outsourcing and a host of other issues are starting to make this path that your ancestor took less and less likely. Take for example the plight of the 99ers...people who have been out of work for two years or more. I dont think this phenomenon is going away anytime soon. In fact I think that we will see more and more stories just like this. Highly educated people who did all the right things and made seemingly all the right choices dragged down to the bottom, and in fact becoming welfare dependent.
Now people like you would say, enough! they should just go find any job and stop leeaching off the government. Easier said than done. Say you are forty. You graduated college 18 years ago, been working middle class professional jobs. Married with kids, bought a house. How can you go and work at McDonalds and make $5.15 per hour and still pay off your mortgage (impossible to sell house), make car payments and all the other costs that come with middle class living? Costs, mind you, that were well within this person's means before the Great Recession?

You have been blessed/fortunate that all your decisions broke the right way, and make no mistake, luck did play a PART in your success, I know people who also owned their own companies, worked their butts off to make it succeed, and ended up losing everything. There but for the grace Of God go I, would be something you wouldnt be remiss to include in your thoughts when making comments on others.
The unemployment rate for college graduates in Texas is about 5% and decreasing.

That said you bring up a great point. We are at a pinch point. Taxes, in the aggregate, are very high. Illegal aliens crowd out legals and citizens at the lower end of the socio-economic scale and they debase the wage scale as well.

Regarding things getting tough. It's time for parents to speak to their kids imploring them to work hard get a diploma and then earn a degree. We need more engineers, accountants, computer scientists, nurses and doctors etc. We need fewer folks with English, history, library science and all other liberal arts.
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Old 03-14-2011, 12:45 PM
 
20,225 posts, read 18,486,607 times
Reputation: 17717
Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033 View Post
I literally almost shat my pants when I read the bolded part. I mean there are no lazy middle class or upper class people who are on drugs, drink too much, and they all earned through working hard. It's only poor people who are dumb and lazy and are waiting around for help.

Were you around for when the time when lower- to solidly middle to upper class people (who in your mind are probably stereotypically hard working and educated) were putting money into mortages for houses they couldn't afford? Those people received assistance when the housing bubble popped.

Were you around when Republicans were hailing low regulation and banks were too big to fail... and they did? Those folks received assistance and had the nerve to gripe about their bonuses but hey they worked and are educated...

Were you around when the tax cuts for the wealthy were about to expire... well we couldn't let those tax cuts expire for the wealthy.... those folks received assistance as well. I guess we'll just wait for that money to trickle down huh?

But hey you said you own a company, you're doing good, f*ck everyone else who is too stupid or lazy to achieve what you have huh? Everything is fine! Go neo-conservatism!
Stop being silly.

The top 50% of US earners pay virtually all net income taxes. By in large the bottom 50% are along for the ride.

My logic is simple and clear. It's better for guys like me to employ a person than to fire that person because of increased taxes and then have that person go on the dole in some way requiring even more net taxes.

It's funny folks like you want us to become what England and France have been while they are scrambling like mad to move back towards the center.
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Old 03-14-2011, 12:49 PM
 
20,225 posts, read 18,486,607 times
Reputation: 17717
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
The problem I find with many conservatives like EDS is that I really dont think they have any idea of what they are REALLY asking for. The typical rant of most conservatives ia always "less taxes! less taxes! Goverment stay out of my life! Let me keep more (preferably all) of my money! anyone else less fortunate is SOL!! This is what the founding fathers wanted! etc etc"
Well I know a country that would be conservatives wet dream...actually I know of several...just about any country in Africa, and most in Asia and South America. The country I hail from Nigeria, does not charge income taxes to most private businesses...the only people who do pay income tax are civil servants and the big multinationals, and maybe the big local firms, but the average small businessman pretty much flies under the radar (unless you run afoul of the local politicians, in which case all hell can be let loose on you)

So, no income taxes, no property taxes, no sales taxes, pretty much nothing to worry about. All great right? well...a few minor details

1) Schools are to put it mildly, a joke, Lets just say that the public schools in Nigeria (where they exist, they are not available everywhere) would make DISD look like a model school district. If you want your kids to have a quality education, better be prepared to cough up serious money for private school or better yet, send them abroad to schools in Europe/USA (something that Texans may have to think about with the school cuts coming also, but thats a whole nother thread). Ditto for higher education.

2) No Police/Fire fighters. Due to the no taxes thing, the police in Nigeria are EXTREMELY poorly paid and as a result are useless as far as fighting crime and defending law and order. You, as a non tax paying rich businessman, will have to hire your own private security company to protect you and your possessions.

3), Healthcare: Due to no taxes, public healthcare is a joke. You better have the funds to go to the expensive private hospitals, or fly your sick ones overseas to better facilities.

4) Jobs for Kids: You will have to employ your kids, or if you have some rich buddies have them hire your kids as a favor to you. It's all about who you know not what you know.

Now since you wont be paying any taxes, I'm sure your income will be MORE than sufficient to cover all these and plenty more that I've not mentioned due to time/space constraints...sounds good no!

This is why I have no problem paying the taxes that are demanded here, because I've seen what can happen when a government leaves its people to the will of the free market...You really should be grateful for what your goverment provides you. It can be a whole lot worse
I have never once said I want vanishingly low taxes.

There are all sorts of things the private sector cannot provide well. Roads, national defense, university systems and many others. I want to trim social welfare spending by 15-20% not trim everything by 50% or some-such.
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