Moving to Dallas - Uptown Choices (McKinney, Spring: sales, rentals, HOA fees)

[Michael_beantown]

Hi all - wife and I are possibly relocating to Dallas (no kids) and are set on Uptown area. Can anyone explain why the typical three story townhome on the east side of Turtle Creek, say 5 years old and 2K square feet is almost $100K more expensive (300K vs. 400K) than something just to the west.....E.g. Oaklawn/Newton/Throckmorton vs. places near to West Village and State/Thomas? I understand the east side places have more access to local amenities, restaurants, bars, etc. but $100K worth for very similar properties? They seem so close. I understand location, location, location but this seems like a big difference and think I must be missing something. Any help appreciated. We are in our mid-30s and past the party stage, still eat out a lot, food shop & cook.

[GreyDay]

Originally Posted by Michael_beantown

Hi all - wife and I are possibly relocating to Dallas (no kids) and are set on Uptown area. Can anyone explain why the typical three story townhome on the east side of Turtle Creek, say 5 years old and 2K square feet is almost $100K more expensive (300K vs. 400K) than something just to the west.....E.g. Oaklawn/Newton/Throckmorton vs. places near to West Village and State/Thomas? I understand the east side places have more access to local amenities, restaurants, bars, etc. but $100K worth for very similar properties? They seem so close. I understand location, location, location but this seems like a big difference and think I must be missing something. Any help appreciated. We are in our mid-30s and past the party stage, still eat out a lot, food shop & cook.

You hit it- proximity to West Village, clubs/bars on Mckinney are a premium as the prices in homes and rent shows. West Village is very walkable (some think safer). Oaklawn has a gay population as well that some may not like and to some extent the bars around there can be a bit rowdier. There's also the proximity to Lemmon avenue and its inherent traffic.

[Willsson]

Oaklawn/Newton/Throckmorton is a re-built 'original' suburb of Dallas, refurbished with townhomes - residential lots where houses were demolished and replaced with four townhomes on a lot. Otherwise fine old duplexes - top/bottom - built nearly a hundred years ago.

Uptown is a rebuilt multi-use - residential/retail/business development running parallel to US 75.

Yes... it is location location location. There is nothing similar about the properties or their locations.

Coming from Boston, you'll probably like either the State/Thomas or Throckmorton areas

Use google/street view to check the neighborhoods. Paticularly Herschel/Prescott/Hawthorne, just off Throckmorton.

[Michael_beantown]

Thanks!!! Obviously we have more research to do. We spent the weekend after Labor Day in the W on Victory and spent much of the weekend in and around Up town, but did drive around the creek and both sides of it, including Oak Lawn. We live in Boston now and live in a very nice part of the city albeit cheaper than our version of Uptown (not 33% though), maybe our version of Oak Lawn. That is OK for us, if not preferable. We don't need constant entertainment and shopping. Is there something not to like about Oak Lawn other than that it definitely felt like a lot more asphalt and concrete everywhere?

[Willsson]

There are two parts to OakLawn, separated by Lemmon Ave. From Lemmon south to Maple is a perhaps lower cost area. Between Cedar Springs and Maple is older and not yet refurbished, probably to be avoided.

From Lemmon to the north... to Highland Park is NORTH Oak Lawn where the better Oak Lawn neighborhoods are located, especially those three streets I mentioned above - between Oak Lawn Ave (becomes Preston Rd to the north) and Gilbert Ave, but include Holland Ave. These are the finest streets in the Oak Lawn area.

A couple of blocks of Lomo Alta at the Dallas North Tollway (Whole Foods) at Lemmon can be included in that neighborhood. Hawthorne is the northern most street in Oak Lawn and abuts Highland Park. You probably do NOT want to venture west of the Dallas North Tollway as values slide dramatically. Also, Cedar Springs Road, as most of the central Oak Lawn area is directly beneath the jetway for Love Field. You can see into the wheel wells of landing jets. North of Lemmon does have some noise but not a serious as Cedar Springs.

[Michael_beantown]

Tofurkey - you clearly know your stuff. We looked at 2 bed rentals (the cookie cutters) in State/Thomas and West Village and would say our tastes put us in the $2,200 - $2,500/mth range. From what I can tell the condo market seems in stasis. Our horizon is 3-5 years so the buy option w/ a 15 yr mortgage looks pretty appealing since the places are so much nicer and can build some equity even not expectign much on appreciation side. I noticed a VERY tight rental market with steeper prices than I expected but these sales prices seem low in comparison. Maybe it isn't but again I sense I must be missing something. Why so adverse to buying our people still shell shocked or I am making too many wild assumptions here?

[TurtleCreek80]

The big differences are this:

East of Turtle Creek (Uptown neighborhood) is MUCH, MUCH more walkable than west of Turtle Creek (Oak Lawn). There are literally dozens if not hudreds of restaurants, bars, etc along the McKinney & Cole Ave corridors. Tons of people out strolling the streets on the nights & weekends.

It's a more consistent neighborhood vs west of Turtle Creek (where south of Cedar Springs is "seedy", between Lemmon & Cedar Springs is half-shady and all gayborhood, and north of Lemmon which is very nice and adjacent to Highland Park (Marblehead-esque in town suburb....and let's not even talk about going west of the Tollroad/ south of Lemmon- yikes!!).

Also keep in mind proximity to Love Field Airport and that most flight routes fly directly over Cedar Springs Road or Lemmon Ave - it gets louder the closer you get to the airport.

It's definitely worth $100k more to be in the Uptown / West Village/ Knox Street neighborhoods if you want the walkable in-town living experience. Oak Lawn/ North Oak Lawn is more "get in your car and drive" with very, very few exceptions- ie, Whole Foods, La Duni for brunch on Oak Lawn, etc.

[Willsson]

Well, I lived there before the rebuilding started. My principle bicycling area was Love Field to SMU to Downtown, though not all in one day. I've walked my dog up and down the streets and alleys of Oak Lawn most any time of day or night. So, I have a local perspective. However, I no longer live in the area.

A realtor may soon pop on here to give an idea of what's going on in the local market. As far as condo's in Dallas, you want to have plenty of time to grow equity, as they're not a really good investment. I would only say, if you buy, be wary of HOA fees. And if I had it to do over, I'd probably land in the State/Thomas area, mostly for roller blading concrete.

- - - - -

Ah, just as I posted - there's TC80, your local MOST expert. Though I think her opening west/east is backwards... she must be north of the area at posting.

[TurtleCreek80]

Originally Posted by Michael_beantown

Tofurkey - you clearly know your stuff. We looked at 2 bed rentals (the cookie cutters) in State/Thomas and West Village and would say our tastes put us in the $2,200 - $2,500/mth range. From what I can tell the condo market seems in stasis. Our horizon is 3-5 years so the buy option w/ a 15 yr mortgage looks pretty appealing since the places are so much nicer and can build some equity even not expectign much on appreciation side. I noticed a VERY tight rental market with steeper prices than I expected but these sales prices seem low in comparison. Maybe it isn't but again I sense I must be missing something. Why so adverse to buying our people still shell shocked or I am making too many wild assumptions here?

I own a condo in the area (hence my user name TC80) and now have it rented out. The rental market is EXTREMLY tight intown right now. My condo went in 2 weeks @ $2/sf and other lower priced units in my building have rented their 1st day on the market! There are currently no rentals in my 200+ unit building.

The buyers market, on the flip side, STINKS. I bought in 2006 and am currently about $50k underwater. Yikes!! I refi'd to get on a 15 year note so at least I'm paying down the balance and can hopefully meet the market in 2-3 years.

The reasons for the bad condo market are many:
1. Dallas isn't a condo town- even in the most dense in-town neighborhoods, they're the last to rise in price in an "up" market and the first to fall in a "down" market. Units in my building were up to 50% below 2007 peak prices last year whereas single family homes in surrounding neighborhoods (Park Cities, M Streets/ East Dallas, North Oak Cliff, etc) were only down 10% or so.

2. Tight financing- condos/ HOA's are frequently involved in two things banks HATE- lawsuits and mandatory assessments. Lawsuits can completely, 100% stop loans from being approved in buildings due to the new lending laws. Assessments/ HOA dues count towards your front/back end ratios and can knock down the amount a buyer is approved for considerably.

3. Lack of flexibility- buying ANYTHING makes a young professional less mobile in the current r/e market; buying something that has no/little chance for appreciation + very long DOM time = bad recipe for someone at the front end of his/her career (may move within few years for another job, grad school, etc) and single life stage (may expect/wish to be married & have kids before 5-7 year "breakeven" point).

Among my friends who still rent as single or married 30-somethings, most admit they're paying more than owning would cost but like the flexibility and/or are too scared to commit. The ones who are buying are skipping the condo/townhome stage and going straight to "forever homes" since prices and interest rates are relatively low. Something you may want to consider if you think you'll stay in Dallas and will possibly need Kindergarten in 5-7 years.....and you don't want to be a landlord!!!

[TurtleCreek80]

Originally Posted by tofurkey

Ah, just as I posted - there's TC80, your local MOST expert. Though I think her opening west/east is backwards... she must be north of the area at posting.

I was backwards- thanks! I fixed.