Gifted & Talented Testing for Elementary (Princeton, Rice: house, private school, college)

[TX75007]

Originally Posted by Big G

Art of Problem Solving would disagree with you. But I think we've had this conversation before.

The Calculus Trap

I really did not see anything in that link that contradicts what I said.

From link:

the standard curriculum is not designed for the top students.

..Curricular classes do not prepare students for the leap from the usual ‘one step and done’ problems to multi-step, multi-discipline problems they will face later on.

find another classroom..

I agree. Most calculus is poorly taught. What the student need is calculus based on theory within a framework of complex problem solving.

Calculus is watered down Analysis. I think that number theory should be taught first then the discrete parts of which Calculus is but one field.

I am speaking from personal experience and that of other mathy kids I knew (mostly from Eastern Europe) in non-traditional programs. And most of the DFW privates have 1-5 kids working at 3+ grade levels in math using more difficult texts as well. And in our own back yard, there is the program sponsored by UTD that PISD supports.

PISD Math Rocks sequence of classes:

6th grade: Honors Math Rocks 6.
7th grade: Honors Math Rocks 7 with Honors Algebra 1 (for high school credit).
8th grade: Honors Math Rocks 8 with Geometry (for high school credit).
9th grade: Algebra 2 combined with Pre-Calculus (for 2 high school credits).
10th grade: Calculus 1/Calculus 2 (for college credit from UTD).
11th grade: Differential Equations/Number Theory (for college credit from UTD).
12th grade: Abstract Algebra/Multi-variable Calculus (for college credit from UTD).

And that is why we have the MMC.

Metroplex Math Circle

Originally Posted by Big G

But I think we've had this conversation before.

I think we did. I think I concluded that you had never completed a rigorous sequence in Abstract Algebra or Analysis and therefore did not understand the need to take them as a basis for success in STEM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_algebra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_analysis

[TX75007]

Originally Posted by pepper131

In addition, though, I think an element is often missing. STEM to STEAM

This is pretty cool.

[TurtleCreek80]

Originally Posted by Big G

I'm pretty sure that's not correct, either. Otherwise, if the "grade-up" sequence only gets you to Calculus by 12th grade, why would HPISD be offering 3-D Calc and Linear Algebra in its catalog?

HPISD offers Linear Algebra and 3-D Calc for very advanced math students; students who are performing 2 grades ahead of the regular on-grade students and 1 grade ahead of "regular" AP/Honors students (which, remember is a VERY large portion of the student body since 85% of HPHS students take at least 1 AP class; average is closer to 3 AP's by graduation). Linear Algebra is actually named in HPHS' course guide (link below) as an "Independent" study course. I belive the AP Calculus teacher facilitates it. Multi-Variable Calculus is listed in the guide as an actual course, but I'd be surprise if there were more than 5-10 students per grade level taking it.

The 3 math tracks are as follows -->

Regular Grade-level: 8th grade math --> 9th grade Algebra --> 10th grade geometry --> 11th grade Algebra II (or something called "Math Models" for slower track)--> 12th grde choice of College Algebra (dual credit @ Richland) / Pre-Cal / Foundations for College Math (Dual Credit @ Richland)/ Advanced Quantitative Reasoning. These 12th grade choices are new since the state mandated the 4-4-4-4 plan a few years back.

Pre-AP "regular" AP/Honors track: 7th grade Pre-Algebra --> 8th grade Algebra --> 9th grade Geometry TAG/ Pre-AP --> 10th grade Algebra II TAG / Pre-AP--> 11th grade Pre-Cal Pre-AP/ TAG --> 12th grade Calculus AP AB & BC.

Advanced track (fairly rare, handful of kids per class): 7th grade Algebra --> 8th grade PreAP / TAG Geometry --> 9th grade Pre-AP/ TAG Algebra II --> 10th grade Pre-AP/ TAG Pre-Cal --> 11th grade AP Calculus AB --> 12th grade choice of AP Calc BC / Multivariable Calc/ Linear Algebra.

AP Stat is a math "elective" course.

HPHS Academic Planning Guide
http://hs.hpisd.org/Portals/0/Departments/Counseling/Academic%20Planning%20Guide.pdf

Page 47 outlines the Math coursework for regular, AP, and advanced track students.

[Big G]

Originally Posted by TX75007

Calculus is watered down Analysis. I think that number theory should be taught first then the discrete parts of which Calculus is but one field.

That's more or less what AoPS is plugging. Rather than moving on and taking Calc, whiz kids should put in 1-2 years studying number theory, probability, advanced geometry, etc. In short, talented kids should be pushed to go deeper, rather than just further in the standard "mile-wide, inch-deep" setup.

I think we did. I think I concluded that you had never completed a rigorous sequence in Abstract Algebra or Analysis and therefore did not understand the need to take them as a basis for success in STEM.

It's not about me. But, since you brought it up, I have taken analysis classes - one each at the undergrad and grad levels. I still have the textbooks - Metric Spaces by Copson and Linear Operator Theory by Naylor/Sell. Feel free to elaborate as to how those don't meet your standards, either. Frankly, I found both of those courses to be subsequently useless, and I've gotten far more mileage out of my Arfken and Mary Boas Math Methods books and the Hoel/Port/Stone theoretical Probability series.

Abstract algebra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mathematical analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah, I know what they are. I stand by my opinion that it's ludicrous to claim that one needs to understand abstract algebra to succeed as an engineer. I'd guess fewer than 10% of engineering grads have such a mathematical background, and the jobs that would require such knowledge are even more scarce. For example, in EE, an information theorist would have need of such knowledge, maybe even a communications person. But a power specialist? A solid-state guy? Analog devices? No way. Most engineers focus their mathematical studies on more applied fields, rightfully so IMO.

If we're lucky, Philip T will wander by and offer his $0.02.

---

Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80

HPISD offers Linear Algebra and 3-D Calc for very advanced math students; students who are performing 2 grades ahead of the regular on-grade students and 1 grade ahead of "regular" AP/Honors students (which, remember is a VERY large portion of the student body since 85% of HPHS students take at least 1 AP class; average is closer to 3 AP's by graduation).

That's the situation of the OP. As you state, the "crowd" in HPISD is doing 8th grade Algebra, and the OP is looking to get one grade ahead of that.

[Macbeth2003]

Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80

Yup, I was in HPISD back in the day and even in the mid 1980's there was testing to get into the "Explorations" (elementary TAG) program. Back then, there was definitely a creative component to testing in as some parents with "book smart" straight A kids were always upset their kids didn't test in & other "textbook" TAG (bored @ grade level, not straight A kids) always got in.

Testing is the "fair" way - parental or teacher opinion is too subjective.

Originally Posted by akpack

as it turns out, teacher opinion is 25% of the admittance criteria.

Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80

And it should be PART of the criteria, supplemental to test results.

In DISD there is testing in Kindergaten for this program (and each year therafter to catch transfers, and any kid who might have been missed. There is a large creative component, and a large part is opinion from both their homeroom teacher, and the TAG teacher who can bring kids for a while before making the final decision. In Kindergarten my son apparently did very well on all the objective, and creative testing; however, in the opinion of the TAG teacher his constant talking, and inability to sit still (family traits I'm afraid ) meant that attending to him would take time away from the other kids. I can totally understand this being a major issue, and for this reason alone, she declined to admit him. The next year he had matured, and there was a new Tag teacher, and he was admitted no problem.

There is also a difference between TAG and academically advanced - at last in the DISD. I have a friend at our school who has a child who is extraordinarily bright, but has twice failed to test into TAG. The TAG teacher explained that when they are offered, he would be an ideal candidate for honors classes, AP classes or any other academically advanced classed, but not TAG which is a different animal involving more hands on projects, and -as she later described it to me - an almost classically liberal arts based approach to many subjects. I don't know how well my kid would do in a "sit here and listen" Honours Math or English class like I had. I have no doubt this other child would do brilliantly in those. Tag is different from academically advanced.

[TurtleCreek80]

Originally Posted by Big G

That's the situation of the OP. As you state, the "crowd" in HPISD is doing 8th grade Algebra, and the OP is looking to get one grade ahead of that.

Then, as I've been saying throughout the whole thread, "Explorations" (the district's Elementary TAG program) probably isn't the answer. Specialized math is and OP needs to get the administration (not the kid's teacher) involved to ensure the kid's needs are met. When parents do this, HPISD has a pretty good (not perfect) track record of meeting specialized learning needs on all fronts- from LD's to advanced abilities.

[GreyDay]

There's nothing stopping parents from putting high school kids into community college during the summer for advanced math classes if they aren't offered by the local school

[TX75007]

Originally Posted by Big G

I stand by my opinion that it's ludicrous to claim that one needs to understand abstract algebra to succeed as an engineer. I'd guess fewer than 10% of engineering grads have such a mathematical background, and the jobs that would require such knowledge are even more scarce.

Its been my experience that my best engineers are either very mathy OR ex-military. I expect them to solve the problems with little input from me other than a review of their approach and methods. If I have to build the intellectual framework to describe the problem, I am doing their job. The kind of intellectual training that abstract math classes demand is the kind of reasoning ability that I like to see.

[Macbeth2003]

Originally Posted by TX75007

Its been my experience that my best engineers are either very mathy OR ex-military.

Funy you should say that. Two engineers I know well are my father (though he spent much of his career as an oil exec) who excelled at mat through his academic career, finishing trig in 8th grade. The other is my wife's grandfather, who taught himself to read as a teenager when he finally entered a school where they cared, ran away to join the navy as soon as possible, served 20 years, and then spent 20 years as an engineer for the FAA. It seems you must be right.

[akpack]

Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80

Once you hit the middle school, kids who are ready for algebra a year early (7th vs 8th) do get bumped up and that follows through high school ending with AP Calculus the senior year (which regular grade level kids don't take). If your kid is working 2+ grades above, the district does a GREAT job of facilitating movement between campuses and ultimately to SMU for college level & beyond math.

i went and talked to my kid's teacher -- "i can't teach above grade math." so i am not inclined to believe they are going to do me any favors. maybe when he's in middle school or something but then he will have wasted a bunch of years. i am seriously thinking about yanking him out.