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Curious, like what? One DISD teacher has apparently been put on administrative leave for writing a letter to a public official expressing his opinion. What would be an effective protest option, in your view? A petition? A blog? A basket of muffins delivered to the Board of Trustees?
The suspension was wrong - unless it violated a contract provision I suppose, but then I would ind that provision morally wrong.
If teachers want to take collective action and strike/ blue flu, then they should never again demand to be treated as professional workers. They cannot be white collar professional workers when it suits them, and blue collar workers when that suits them. God knows teachers are not interchangeable cogs in a machine, and I think - long term, such things as this and collective bargaining are harmful, as it helps reinforce the perception of them as factory workers churning out a product.
I particularly despise the tactic of lying and calling in sick. If a teacher does that they had better never agin try to claim moral authority in a classroom, it would be a joke. If you must try to claim the advantages of blu and white collar workers simultaneously, strike honestly, strike openly, don't lie about it to avoid problems.
I think we have in some ways a different view of what a teacher is, and that may be an unbridgeable gap. I get the feeling you view teachers as something different not quite of the professional class, nor the working class. Much as I view the job of an artist to be not of any class but their own class (neither white or blue collar - I could of course be totally of base on that, it i just what I gather, certainly nothing you have explicitly stated. I view a teacher as predominately working for the parents, and the demands of their job must be based primarily upon the needs of the children, and the needs of the parents.nWhich is why, for example, I feel their evaluations should be based over 50% on parent feedback.
Actually, I DO fundamentally disagree that teachers work for the parents. Perhaps if your kids have gone to private school this air may be more embedded into a school culture where parents pay $25K a year and expect that teachers work for them.
I view the parent-teacher relationship as a PARTNERSHIP. The teacher does not get to ignore the needs and wishes of the parent, and the parent does not get to look at teacher as his subordinate or his employee. Ask teachers who work in affluent publics or privates about the way this latter attitude manifests itself in countless small and large ways (let Johnny turn his assignment in late because we were on vacation, you need to change Johnny's grade, I demand a conference when and where I want it because you work for me, etc.)
I also think teachers are in this weird gray area between knowledge worker (they have masters' degrees, are skilled and knowledgeable about their subject), yet are subject to things (clock-punching, salary based on a rigid step scale instead of performance) that are more akin to blue-collar workers. This creates a constant tension both within the profession and the way others look at it.
If you want teachers to be clock-punchers, fine. Don't expect them to take work home and pay them for every minute that their butt is on campus, plus time and half for any extra. If you want them to be knowledge-workers, fine. Accept that they can manage their time as professionals and allow them them pay increases and bonuses based on performance like you would give any private-sector valued employee.
The suspension was wrong - unless it violated a contract provision I suppose, but then I would ind that provision morally wrong.
If teachers want to take collective action and strike/ blue flu, then they should never again demand to be treated as professional workers. They cannot be white collar professional workers when it suits them, and blue collar workers when that suits them. God knows teachers are not interchangeable cogs in a machine, and I think - long term, such things as this and collective bargaining are harmful, as it helps reinforce the perception of them as factory workers churning out a product.
I particularly despise the tactic of lying and calling in sick. If a teacher does that they had better never agin try to claim moral authority in a classroom, it would be a joke. If you must try to claim the advantages of blu and white collar workers simultaneously, strike honestly, strike openly, don't lie about it to avoid problems.
I actually tend to agree -- I would rather teaching move into the knowlege-worker camp with performance-based pay. I think part of the reason many young talented people don't go into teaching is because they don't like the fact that their performance will not get rewarded and they don't like the cog-in-the-machine air that doesn't treat them as talented creative professionals.
That said, I would suggest that DISD fired the first shot when they pushed this through without any input by the professionals. It's clear how DISD thinks of teachers, so they are responding in kind. They're being treated as factory workers, so they're responding as factory workers, with a potential strike.
The district is going to be sued for violation of this teacher's constitutional rights, and his letter should not have been forwarded to the district. Moderator cut: see comment Off-Topic Go teachers, you have my support!
Last edited by BstYet2Be; 02-01-2012 at 10:59 PM..
Reason: Political statements Off-Topic for this thread & forum
Actually, I DO fundamentally disagree that teachers work for the parents. Perhaps if your kids have gone to private school this air may be more embedded into a school culture where parents pay $25K a year and expect that teachers work for them.
I view the parent-teacher relationship as a PARTNERSHIP. The teacher does not get to ignore the needs and wishes of the parent, and the parent does not get to look at teacher as his subordinate or his employee. Ask teachers who work in affluent publics or privates about the way this latter attitude manifests itself in countless small and large ways (let Johnny turn his assignment in late because we were on vacation, you need to change Johnny's grade, I demand a conference when and where I want it because you work for me, etc.)
Well I believe they work for us, like most people work, within a set of agreed parameters. Changing a grade or letting a kid turn it late homework, is clearly outside those parameters. Addressing a concern with a parent when it happens, rather then later whenever possible is IMHO within the parameters. The second is simply common sense. If you have a question about tonight's homework, or a kid was smacking your kid, that isn't going to wait for a "convenient" time to discuss. Changing a grade is falsifying data, something no worker should do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramona72
I also think teachers are in this weird gray area between knowledge worker (they have masters' degrees, are skilled and knowledgeable about their subject), yet are subject to things (clock-punching, salary based on a rigid step scale instead of performance) that are more akin to blue-collar workers. This creates a constant tension both within the profession and the way others look at it.
Most teachers do not have any postgraduate degrees. That isn't to denigrate the Bachelors' most have, just an attempt to be accurate. I also do not believe the level of education defines the job. I probably know more actors with postrad degrees than I do teachers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramona72
If you want teachers to be clock-punchers, fine. Don't expect them to take work home and pay them for every minute that their butt is on campus, plus time and half for any extra. If you want them to be knowledge-workers, fine. Accept that they can manage their time as professionals and allow them them pay increases and bonuses based on performance like you would give any private-sector valued employee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramona72
I actually tend to agree -- I would rather teaching move into the knowlege-worker camp with performance-based pay. I think part of the reason many young talented people don't go into teaching is because they don't like the fact that their performance will not get rewarded and they don't like the cog-in-the-machine air that doesn't treat them as talented creative professionals.
That said, I would suggest that DISD fired the first shot when they pushed this through without any input by the professionals. It's clear how DISD thinks of teachers, so they are responding in kind. They're being treated as factory workers, so they're responding as factory workers, with a potential strike.
Time and again it is the teachers and the teachers union who reject any attempt to tie pay to performance rather than tenure. Universally teachers unions, and advocacy groups oppose it whenever it comes up. This has been true for decades, while districts have repeatedly tried to do this. So who fired the first shot? In addition I continue to maintain, it is the white collar worker, who is more likely to have hours set from above within input. When my Dad was an exec for Phillips Petroleum hours were 8-5, then for a while they became 8-6, by the time he left hours were 9-6, and you were there for that time, unless there was a rare exception. You also took work home when asked, and he was eventually required to keep a (very early generation) mobile phone with him in the morning and evening going to and from work, in case an office in another time zone needed him. He also frequently brought work home. This was similar for everyone we knew. When my FIL worked for Miller and they wanted to change the hours it required negotiation with the union and the workers. Again the changing of hours from above seems more white collar than blue. The negotiation and involvement of "the workforce" seems more blue collar. It seems a bit much to me to ask for collective bargaining (speaking generally of public school teachers), demand tenure vs merit pay, demand to be consulted in administrative matters, and then claim to be a professional, white collar workforce.
I think in many ways for the DISD this was no win. If they didn't consult they were the bad guys, if thy did consult, and then changed the hours because they thought it was needed to keep some teachers at school who were not working, then they would be the bad guys for ignoring the teachers' opinions.
Personally, I think the best thing would have been to consult with parents and teachers about the changes, but in the end they were entitled to do what they did, and the teachers are not entitled to lie about being sick, set that horrible example for kids- if you don't get what you want throw a fit and lie - and disrupt the school. If you want to strike, strike, and take the risk of being replaced that entails. If you don't even have the courage of your convictions, then .....
Last edited by Macbeth2003; 01-30-2012 at 10:45 PM..
Reason: to correct close quote bracket
The letter to the trustee was not professional...
it was out of bounds...
the fact that the teacher used the school's computer to send the email is probably also a violation of school policy since the purpose was a personal matter: the teacher's disgust with several DISD matters--not just the time extension. The teacher's reference to the wealth of the trustee vs the teacher is just not appropriate...
this person has too much hostility and is apparently under a lot of stress financially--which is sad--but still does not condone how he dealt with that frustration...
I wonder if he is an alt-cert person who came into education from another job field...Personally I don't know any male teachers with 6 children and few female teachers with more than 3...
but admittedly I don't know thousands of teachers...just small personal sample...
I don't know exactly how DISD came to make this decision really --not a subscriber to DMN and FTW did not give it that much attention
the teachers have contracts with DISD that run through the summer...
the contracts at some point must specify the time requirements to be on campus
I know that my school had the time teachers were expected to arrive and when they could leave...
There were teachers in my bldg who came late lots of time and some who left early--
the principal had the power to repremand them and to downgrade their yearly evaluation for doing so
but most of the time if no one had to cover for that teacher it was just ignored...
I don't agree with that (because I WAS on time and stayed late--went 5 yrs with NO missed days at all)
but I had no control over other people
I would think it is illegal for the Board to just decide that it needs to extend the teachers' hours without any discussion/negotiation of that with the teachers...
This is not the same situation as someone working at a store and the boss decides they are going to open half an hour early and stay open later and you are going to work those hours...workers in TX don't usually have contracts and employers have much more power (which is why companies like coming here)
But I wouldn't be surprised if one of the professional organization files a lawsuit on behalf of their members who teach at DISD--
IF the Board wanted to change the hours for the next year and people were notified and signed their contracts at whatever salary--then they made that choice knowing what was on the table...
but with contract workers, I think the District has obligations that it probably did not pay any attention to
But I wouldn't be surprised if one of the professional organization files a lawsuit on behalf of their members who teach at DISD--
IF the Board wanted to change the hours for the next year and people were notified and signed their contracts at whatever salary--then they made that choice knowing what was on the table...
but with contract workers, I think the District has obligations that it probably did not pay any attention to
I had wondered about that myself, but I assumed - perhaps wrongly - that since no mention had been made of it being a contract violation, that their contract must allow for such changes.
I might be happy that the slackers who *do* leave when the bell rings would be required to stay.
If I had a job that was paid by the hour and I couldn't just charge extra for overtime, I'd leave at the EXACT time "when the bells ring" because I don't run a charity and work for free.
Why is it that this is labeled being a "slacker", if the employer is so rigid as to prescribe a precise set of hours of work?
If someone would call me a slacker for adhering to precise rules, I'd call them something much more impolite in return.
most of the comments about how teachers can just stop working when the clock hands touch the appropriate number just indicate a total lack of knowledge about what a teacher's work day and job performance require...
some areas USED to be relatively free of after-hours work-at-home stuff (elementary teachers 8 or 10 yrs ago)...
English teachers who did their jobs correctly ALWAYS had take home work because they do so much more written work that has to be graded individually and closely...
IF ELA teachers DON'T have that type of work then they are simply not doing their jobs--
there is no way to run a classroom with all the requisite curriculum needs and actually teach certain concepts/skills W/O having written samples from students...
The fact that so many students going to college are found lacking in writing skills and often resort to plagiarism is just proof that teachers are not doing their jobs in teaching students how to think/write with confidence...
the joke was that coaches were history teachers more often than not because you could give multiple choice tests on Scantrons and be done grading in 15 min...
that is not so much true any more because the QUALITY of testing has had to be raised--and that means usually having essay type questions
and in AP classes in any area there is always more written work to be graded...
Teachers are often required to use their at-school time that is supposed to be for grading/planning having REQUIRED meetings to discuss ARDs for students, calling parents about problems in the classroom like absenses, tardies, lack of progress. In some schools because of staff cuts teachers have to make their own copies for handouts/assignments vs turning in their requests and picking them up later.
IMO there is NO WAY an ELA teacher from jr high grades on up can EVER get the required amount of work done ON SCHOOL PAID TIME...
and other disciplines also require extra time in off hours spent grading/preparing...
I just don't know enough about those disciplines to be as firm about how many hours that might entail...
Administrators just don't want to admit that working at home, off-the-clock is necessary
they turn a blind eye to it and suggest that such teachers are unorganized, plan poorly, and don't know how to conceptualize work so that it can be accomplished with minimum of time outside school...
BOSH--
most admins left the classroom for 2 reasons--more money and the fact that they could not hack taking the strain of being a classroom teacher...
and I am not saying that being an admin is easier because it too requires effort/time outside of normal school time--BUT you are certainly paid better for it...and the immediate impace of TAKS testing on admins is just much less than on teachers in a TAKS grade...while they get tasked with the weight of the school--that is also diluted by the number of teachers at the front lines...
This is just another example of why the DISD board is basically disfunctional and the admin staff of the district is so out of touch with how to improve the district...
they have alienated so many people with this arbitrary decision, handed down like a fiat from the king--
That is why the nobles made King John sign the Magna Carta...
DISD has no clue how to run an organization this large, this fractured within itself==
it is basically self-destructing one day at a time...
PS==my comment/question about the DISD teacher suspended for the email being an alt-cert---
I don't know about that aspect but apparently he has 14 yrs experience in education...and 4 with DISD
so why he is only on step 4 of Dallas's salary ladder is interesting--
I wonder if his time was spent in private schools and he got no credit on the work-history ladder when he was hired...
I don't even know how/if DISD gives teachers credit for years spent in other districts or states--cause it can vary by district
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- I could of course be totally of base on that, it i just what I gather, certainly nothing you have explicitly stated. I view a teacher as predominately working for the parents, and the demands of their job must be based primarily upon the needs of the children, and the needs of the parents.nWhich is why, for example, I feel their evaluations should be based over 50% on parent feedback.
