How does Dallas support so much retail? (Houston, Plano: sales, how much)

[jason87x]

Hello. Made another trip and couldn't help but notice the huge glut of retail (it's good to have shopping selection). People say JoCoKS is overbuilt with retail but it's nothing close to down here. Things such as Stonebriar, Willowbend, Collin Creek, Fairview, Northpark, Galleria, Valley View, PLUS the nearby strip malls and power centers, and other random shopping centers in the Park Cities, all in an area that in jocoks (which is almost as wealthy as Dallas) has one indoor mall and one outdoor mall (that are doing any business).

Granted, there are a ton of rich people down here, but how does the area support so much retail? Is it a bubble waiting to burst? Or what else is going on?

This is not necessarily a bad thing however, as I enjoyed being able to find whatever I wanted, which can be tough up home.

[Eric Fred Norris]

it doesnt. are strip malls with vacant anchor spaces galore. red bird, six flags and irving malls have become glorified flea markets.

[Rakin]

Cheap commercial space compared to many areas.

[TurtleCreek80]

Couple of explanations:

1. There are over 6 MILLION people living in the DFW metroplex. How many live in "jokoks" (wherever that is??)

2. A mall like NorthPark Center is considered a "regional" mall, meaning people routinely travel there from other parts of Texas and also neighboring states such as Oklahoma, Louisana, and Arkansas. The # 1 customer at the downtown Dallas Neiman Marcus actually lives in Arkansas! NorthPark does over $1 B in sales each year and is home to the #1 volume Neiman Marcus and #1 volume Dillard's in those chains. It's not just the immediate neighborhoods supporting a mall like NorthPark.

3. A lot of our store are the only ones in Texas and/or the Southwest. Some examples of that are located in Highland Park Village:
*Christian Louboutin (next closest one is in Las Vegas)
*Stella McCartney (only 7 stores in the US, next closest is Chicago)
*Diane Von Fursterburg (only 9 stores in the US, next closest one is Las Vegas)
*Harry Winston (8 US stores, next closest is Chicago).
NorthPark and, to a lesser degree, WillowBend are also home to premier TX/SW exclusives.

If a socialite in your hometown is looking for a specific Louboutin shoe or the perfect Harry Winston bauble, there's a good chance she's either calling the Dallas store or flying down to shop here herself. Dallas is a MUCH larger market than just our metro area. I cannot repeat that enough for you to understand our retail market.

Taking it further (but staying true to reality), many wealthy families in Mexico and South America come to major US retail markets to shop. Houston, Miami, and Dallas all benefit from "shopping tourism."


4. It seems you only drove through the nicer parts of the metroplex, which distorts your perception of the overall retail market. Many of the lower income parts are blighted and severly lacking in retail options. I think there is only 1 Wal-Mart between I-30 and I-20 in the southern Dallas sector whereas there are probably 3+ within a 5-10 minute drive of my office in Plano. Many older malls are half-boarded up and have empty anchor stores. Irving Mall and Valley View Mall are good examples of this. People who live in these neighborhoods often have to drive to nicer neighborhoods (the ones you drove through) just to shop at a Super Target, buy back-to-school clothes for the kids, buy Christmas presents, etc. Those who live in the affluent neighborhoods in underserved sectors (ie, Kessler Park in North Oak Cliff which is south of I-30, yet full of $400k-$2M homes) drive to Uptown/ Park Cities/ NorthPark to do their shopping.

[TrueDat]

When he says JoCoKs, he's speaking of Johnson County, Kansas (specifically Overland Park), the Collin County/Orange County/Broward-Palm Beach County of the Kansas City metro area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Park,_Kansas

[synchronicity]

Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80

Couple of explanations:

1. There are over 6 MILLION people living in the DFW metroplex. How many live in "jokoks" (wherever that is??)

2. A mall like NorthPark Center is considered a "regional" mall, meaning people routinely travel there from other parts of Texas and also neighboring states such as Oklahoma, Louisana, and Arkansas. The # 1 customer at the downtown Dallas Neiman Marcus actually lives in Arkansas! NorthPark does over $1 B in sales each year and is home to the #1 volume Neiman Marcus and #1 volume Dillard's in those chains. It's not just the immediate neighborhoods supporting a mall like NorthPark.

3. A lot of our store are the only ones in Texas and/or the Southwest. Some examples of that are located in Highland Park Village:
*Christian Louboutin (next closest one is in Las Vegas)
*Stella McCartney (only 7 stores in the US, next closest is Chicago)
*Diane Von Fursterburg (only 9 stores in the US, next closest one is Las Vegas)
*Harry Winston (8 US stores, next closest is Chicago).
NorthPark and, to a lesser degree, WillowBend are also home to premier TX/SW exclusives.

If a socialite in your hometown is looking for a specific Louboutin shoe or the perfect Harry Winston bauble, there's a good chance she's either calling the Dallas store or flying down to shop here herself. Dallas is a MUCH larger market than just our metro area. I cannot repeat that enough for you to understand our retail market.

Taking it further (but staying true to reality), many wealthy families in Mexico and South America come to major US retail markets to shop. Houston, Miami, and Dallas all benefit from "shopping tourism."


4. It seems you only drove through the nicer parts of the metroplex, which distorts your perception of the overall retail market. Many of the lower income parts are blighted and severly lacking in retail options. I think there is only 1 Wal-Mart between I-30 and I-20 in the southern Dallas sector whereas there are probably 3+ within a 5-10 minute drive of my office in Plano. Many older malls are half-boarded up and have empty anchor stores. Irving Mall and Valley View Mall are good examples of this. People who live in these neighborhoods often have to drive to nicer neighborhoods (the ones you drove through) just to shop at a Super Target, buy back-to-school clothes for the kids, buy Christmas presents, etc. Those who live in the affluent neighborhoods in underserved sectors (ie, Kessler Park in North Oak Cliff which is south of I-30, yet full of $400k-$2M homes) drive to Uptown/ Park Cities/ NorthPark to do their shopping.

All very reasonable explanations. THBS, on the "city size/regional market" issue, it has appeared to me that Dallas has more retail relative to population than Chicago, although that may be perception rather than reality. Chicago obviously is a major city that I would assume draws people from nearby areas in a way not dissimilar to Dallas.

Just saying that the OP from KC isn't the only one who's noticed a seeming overabundance of retail in Dallas, again with the caveat that it's appearance only and not driven by data.

[TX75007]

Just look at google earth to get a feel for how much SFH and MFH there is within 10 miles of the malls you mentioned.

As for the older malls, they lost out to the ones you mentioned and they also lost out to demographics as the areas around them have few kids. This will change.

As for areas within Dallas, the city of Dallas has a dysfunction when it comes to planning. It takes forever sometimes to get changes through.

[TXNGL]

Originally Posted by TrueDat

When he says JoCoKs, he's speaking of Johnson County, Kansas (specifically Overland Park), the Collin County/Orange County/Broward-Palm Beach County of the Kansas City metro area.

Overland Park, Kansas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have friends there, it's not a huge area. I don't see how you can compare Johnson County to the whole DFW area? Maybe comparing Plano and Overland Park as far as retail would make more sense.

[TX75007]

Originally Posted by synchronicity

All very reasonable explanations. THBS, on the "city size/regional market" issue, it has appeared to me that Dallas has more retail relative to population than Chicago, although that may be perception rather than reality. Chicago obviously is a major city that I would assume draws people from nearby areas in a way not dissimilar to Dallas.

Chicago and Illinois have their own set of problems that drive out retail and depress disposable income.

There are a number of areas in DFW that are still "underbuilt" when it comes to retail services.

[synchronicity]

Originally Posted by TX75007

Chicago and Illinois have their own set of problems that drive out retail and depress disposable income.

There are a number of areas in DFW that are still "underbuilt" when it comes to retail services.

Well, my perception (again, anecdotes and observations, not data driven) is that there seems to be more retail, especially "malls", than not just Chicago but any of the other urban areas I've lived in.

If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to guess at a reason, I'd say "cheap housing in Dallas". People tend to spend most of what they earn, and if it's not going to housing then maybe more of it's going to the mall.

(Also a perception of Metroplex residents as being a bit more "consumer" oriented than some other areas, but that's just a general vibe and I have no way of backing that up with hard numbers).