British Mom moving to HP/UP/PH or Lakewood?? Help! (Dallas: top schools, university)
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Considering the bottom 20% kids at Woodrow either aren't going to college at all or are at El Centro, the bottom 20% of HP kids who end up at Tech, Alabama, Ole Miss, etc are still a few legs up on their WW counterparts and are matriculating into the same tier 2 schools their private school counterparts are.
Comparing the college choices of a newly arrived immigrant and an ennui filled debutante isn't intellectually honest either. The kids 58-72 at Woodrow are at least on par with 400-500 at HP, I'd guess better.
The better the high school profile, the deeper a kid can rank in his/her class and still get into a better school because the colleges know & respect the strength of curriculum. The valedictorian from Skyline can get into Ivy, but someone ranking after 1-2 probably wouldn't. Maybe a T10 kid at Woodrow can get in. At HP, a kid could probably rank down to about 25-30 and still get in (based on people I know).
Same reason why kids outside T8% won't get into UT from Woodrow but a T40% kid can still get in from HP. HP's 40th% is probably equivalent to Woodrow's 8th% pool.
So what I'm reading is that you think your hypothetical child has a better chance of being 30/500 at HP than 10/75 at Woodrow? That's not how my math works.
I honestly think that my hypothetical child has a better chance at HYPS from Woodrow and a guarantee at UT for a backup (my child, not everyone’s). Those schools pick and choose the demographics they want and a top 10 "urban" kid with 1400+ SATs, an IB degree, multiple 4s and 5s on AP test, swim captain, and lead in the school musical is money in the bank. It's a lot easier to rack up the leadership qualities desired by our education system at Woodrow than HP.
Hillcrest is in PH. And this thread long ago devolved. I mean, OP wasn't asking about HPHS either...
I appreciate you attempting to address my questions...actually the minutiae of an institution's matriculation statistics, is largely irrelevant to my decision making. I did in fact ask about HPHS, once it became clear to me that the school was an academically sound one. But my question was entirely about my main concern, which isn't what college my children will eventually end up in, if God blesses me and them with that opportunity, it was about their happiness.
It is far more important to me, as ignorant and clueless as I am about American schools, to try to understand the social environment. I want my children to be happy. For me that means spending the majority of their day away from me, ( ), with people who are generally kind, humane, happy for the most part. I want them to feel like, even in this vast and incredible country there is a community where they feel like they belong and where they can contribute and flourish.
I dread the thought of my sons feeling like their only value comes from the grades on their report card or the amount of times they beat their classmates, or their sports rivals. Like unless they make it onto some arbitrary list of top somethings they are a failure. Additionally, the idea of my daughter feeling like her worth to her peer group comes from how thin she is and how attractive to the opposite sex she is, horrifies me. I have worked hard to instil values in my children, and to support and nurture the growth of their God given character, in a world that often fails to remember that the greatest achievement is to be a good man. Or a good woman. I really wanted to know what the schools are like from the point of view of the children. What do they struggle with when you tuck them in at night? what do they like about their friends? do they feel accepted? Safe? happy? Are the kids kind/mean? Do they run the gauntlet every day? Is it dog-eat-dog? Or friendly and fun with the odd tricky situation?
That's what I tried to ask about...
I appreciate you attempting to address my questions...actually the minutiae of an institution's matriculation statistics, is largely irrelevant to my decision making. I did in fact ask about HPHS, once it became clear to me that the school was an academically sound one. But my question was entirely about my main concern, which isn't what college my children will eventually end up in, if God blesses me and them with that opportunity, it was about their happiness.
It is far more important to me, as ignorant and clueless as I am about American schools, to try to understand the social environment. I want my children to be happy. For me that means spending the majority of their day away from me, ( ), with people who are generally kind, humane, happy for the most part. I want them to feel like, even in this vast and incredible country there is a community where they feel like they belong and where they can contribute and flourish.
I dread the thought of my sons feeling like their only value comes from the grades on their report card or the amount of times they beat their classmates, or their sports rivals. Like unless they make it onto some arbitrary list of top somethings they are a failure. Additionally, the idea of my daughter feeling like her worth to her peer group comes from how thin she is and how attractive to the opposite sex she is, horrifies me. I have worked hard to instil values in my children, and to support and nurture the growth of their God given character, in a world that often fails to remember that the greatest achievement is to be a good man. Or a good woman. I really wanted to know what the schools are like from the point of view of the children. What do they struggle with when you tuck them in at night? what do they like about their friends? do they feel accepted? Safe? happy? Are the kids kind/mean? Do they run the gauntlet every day? Is it dog-eat-dog? Or friendly and fun with the odd tricky situation?
That's what I tried to ask about...
Honestly, the cultures aren't so different between the UK and the US that you are likely to be shocked by anything you see in an American school.
The main difference is the secondary school/sixth form cutoff in the UK that does not exist here. High schools aren't streamed and all kids go to the same school 9-12. There is no concept of multiple qualifications in the form of GCSEs and A-levels; ours is a baccaulaureate system that culminates in a single diploma.
Teens are teens, British or American. There's not a whole lot of difference.
Not every kid / parent is gunning for Ivy / T20 colleges. And that's ok. This thread was discussing top students and I doubt any HP kids in the top 20% are picking LSU (unless it's a ridiculous full ride and then, more power to them).
Agree. If you want your kid to go to a top 20 school, you will be fine at either Woodrow or at HP. If you don't want that, you're still fine at either school. No options, Ivy or otherwise, are precluded at Woodrow that would be available at HP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80
Considering the bottom 20% kids at Woodrow either aren't going to college at all or are at El Centro, the bottom 20% of HP kids who end up at Tech, Alabama, Ole Miss, etc are still a few legs up on their WW counterparts and are matriculating into the same tier 2 schools their private school counterparts are.
I really don't think the bottom 20% is relevant, as the bottom 20% of kids at Woodrow are not coming from Lakewood (where the OP is considering) and are not going to be in the IB/AP classes at Woodrow where the majority of Lakewood students will be; and a surprising number of those poorer bottom 20% students from outside of Lakewood are still going to college.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80
Also considering pretty much everyone with a substantial (3000SF, single family detached) family home in the Park Cities is paying $1M+ to live there, there are MANY more reasons to choose the Park Cities than just the great public schools -> "concierge" quality fire & police departments, well kept public parks & pools, near 0% crime rate, best central suburban-feeling location in Dallas, community events & support, etc. Even if jr isn't destined for Ivy, it's hardly as though the family "suffered" through their Park Cities existence for 20+ years to educate him. They got to live in one of the best urban enclaves in the US.
There are obviously many $1M+ homes in Lakewood as well (and that number is growing at a faster rate than PC due to the teardowns). Obviously, Lakewood also has well kept public parks and pools (oh, and White Rock Lake), low crime, a stellar location near downtown and Knox-Henderson, community events and support, etc. And obviously, as noted above by the many supporters in and out of Lakewood, very good public schools, especially for the upper end of the school within a school.
We moved to Dallas about a year ago from the North Eastern part of the States,....not as much as a culture shock as your family may have....but still, a culture shock! All three areas of Dallas are wonderful places to raise a family; most folks are friendly, the weather is great if you don't count June thrugh September! and my kids have made the move very happily.
I have not spent time in Surrey, but lived two years north of London. I think there is quite a difference in the social climate of the schools in an affluent area in the states vs. certain areas of England. Your 13yr old may have the most difficult transition, certainly depends on her personality. We loved the Park Cities when we visited, as previously mentioned, lovely parks and services, beautiful homes. We decided against the area as we felt it to be too socially competetive for our two girls. There is a lot of money, and unlike the area I moved from, people like to show their wealth; not uncommon for all the kids to have cars, and lots and lots of spending money. (my 17 yr old thinks if you are not thin, blonde, and have a $600 bag over your arm, you won't fit in at HPHS). Though not true of every high school student, the use of drugs, and alcohol would be in any public and private schools in Dallas (and the US for that matter).
We decided on Lakewood, and feel we made the best desicion for our family. We love the neighborhood feel...our nine year old always has someone to play with. I like that it is still a little quirky...not everone dresses the same or looks the same. There is more economic diversity here, and I think that's a healthy thing, helps keep perspective.
We felt Lakewood had a more "neighborhood feel" than PH, and this was something important to us. So I scleppe cross town to drive my older student to a private in North Dallas. She drives now, so it's not as difficult for me now. We have been very pleased with her school.
My younger daughter attends a small private close to our home, we love it for lower school. We will need to find a different school for high school, but for now it is wonderful.
Living in Lakewood has worked wonderfully for our family, but is all depends on what is most important for your family. I personally believe a private school may give your family a more sheltered, less "sophitisticated" feel. They tend to be smaller, and have a community feel (although many of the good publics have great community, just not small).
If you are Christian, you might want to check out Providence School (very structured and the children must rise and greet teachers and visitors by name, reminds me of English schools). But is very religious, you will not like it if your family is not. Also Ursuline Academy is a wonderful girls high school, the girls seem genuinely nice (it is Roman Catholic, though I don't think you have to be catholic to go there, not sure).
So what I'm reading is that you think your hypothetical child has a better chance of being 30/500 at HP than 10/75 at Woodrow? That's not how my math works.
I honestly think that my hypothetical child has a better chance at HYPS from Woodrow and a guarantee at UT for a backup (my child, not everyone’s). Those schools pick and choose the demographics they want and a top 10 "urban" kid with 1400+ SATs, an IB degree, multiple 4s and 5s on AP test, swim captain, and lead in the school musical is money in the bank. It's a lot easier to rack up the leadership qualities desired by our education system at Woodrow than HP.
I've been watching this thread with detatched interest, but I think I'll jump into the fray.
I've had a lot of exposure (more than I would like) to the elite college admissions process, both through my own experiences and those of my friends, both at Plano West and throughout the country. I also know some people who interview for top, Ivy league schools, and get to see the lists of people admitted and what schools they come from. I've had a pretty good amount of success thus far in the admissions process, so I would like to think I have a decent idea of what it takes to get into a top 10 school.
I've come to the conclusion that going to a particular school isn't really a big factor in college admissions. Realize that right now, the admissions rates for HYPS are around 5%. They get a lot of incredible, qualified candidates. If you want in to one of these schools, you have to do more than just be involved with a club/team and have a good GPA/test scores. You need to persuade them that you are intellectually engaged to the point where having you would be an asset to their school. I'm sorry, but saying you're from Woodrow or wherever and you're at the top of your class isn't enough. As far as diversity is concerned, it really matters more whether you have a unique interest or if your a minority -I don't think the school you're at enters the equation.
The point of what I'm saying is that don't think you have a leg up because you go to a certain school.
That having been said, whether kids are going to top colleges still shouldn't be dismissed, it's just important for a different reason. Recall that these are kids who would be assets to a top college; it stands to reason that they are also assets to the high schools they go to. If you can be at a school (or another enviroment, you don't have to have these interactions at school) where you are around a number of these kids, not just one or two, and where you're able to develop your mind and undertsanding of the wider world with them, that is an awesome experience. At the same time, if this is happening at school, the chances are that the large number of high achievers will allow for the school to have a rigorous curriculum and more academic activities/clubs/competitions. In short, looking at whether or not many kids end up at top schools can be a metric of sorts on the experience that a hard-working, devoted student would have at a given school.
I've been watching this thread with detatched interest, but I think I'll jump into the fray.
I've had a lot of exposure (more than I would like) to the elite college admissions process, both through my own experiences and those of my friends, both at Plano West and throughout the country. I also know some people who interview for top, Ivy league schools, and get to see the lists of people admitted and what schools they come from. I've had a pretty good amount of success thus far in the admissions process, so I would like to think I have a decent idea of what it takes to get into a top 10 school.
I've come to the conclusion that going to a particular school isn't really a big factor in college admissions. Realize that right now, the admissions rates for HYPS are around 5%. They get a lot of incredible, qualified candidates. If you want in to one of these schools, you have to do more than just be involved with a club/team and have a good GPA/test scores. You need to persuade them that you are intellectually engaged to the point where having you would be an asset to their school. I'm sorry, but saying you're from Woodrow or wherever and you're at the top of your class isn't enough. As far as diversity is concerned, it really matters more whether you have a unique interest or if your a minority -I don't think the school you're at enters the equation.
The point of what I'm saying is that don't think you have a leg up because you go to a certain school.
That having been said, whether kids are going to top colleges still shouldn't be dismissed, it's just important for a different reason. Recall that these are kids who would be assets to a top college; it stands to reason that they are also assets to the high schools they go to. If you can be at a school (or another enviroment, you don't have to have these interactions at school) where you are around a number of these kids, not just one or two, and where you're able to develop your mind and undertsanding of the wider world with them, that is an awesome experience. At the same time, if this is happening at school, the chances are that the large number of high achievers will allow for the school to have a rigorous curriculum and more academic activities/clubs/competitions. In short, looking at whether or not many kids end up at top schools can be a metric of sorts on the experience that a hard-working, devoted student would have at a given school.
You raise a very good point. (And you make it rather well ). I too, was going to remain firmly outside this whole, elite college admissions bunfight discussion, but heigh-ho I'll chip in too.
Your point, it seems, that you take pains to qualify, is that schools attended are not necessarily a significant factor in the decision to admit a candidate. And perhaps, if I may extrapolate, that the perception of those attempting to gain admission may be skewed in believing that it is. That would not be unreasonable to suggest.
You also make the point that it is folly to dismiss the matriculation statistics of an institution, for it indicates a potential strength of the school in possessing the kind of valuable student that contributes to an intellectually and socially fertile environment, which supposedly is good.
Yet I believe you assert a syllogistic fallacy. Several actually, but I wanted to address one in particular. Your premise; that it is intellectual engagement that determines admission to an elite institution, rather than possessing a perfectly formed preparatory school resume and a history with the right school. That is a point I will come to. Your conclusion thereafter is a non sequitur. Firstly, that there be a large number of said engaged students in these schools, when the statistics that have been quoted in this thread have focused on the top two graduates of each institution, there have been generalisations made about the other 'top 20%' but the point has been made that few institutions in the US admit a significant number of graduates per year to the Ivy League schools, or their counterparts. I contend that you are mistakenly confusing high achievers with the intellectually engaged.
Let me return to the very good point you make about the intellectually engaged and indeed how rewarding an experience it is to be around them. I agree wholeheartedly. Having personal experience with our version of the elite institutions, namely Oxford and Cambridge, I can vouch for the fact that precious few are granted access to that glorious, delicious, fecund intellectual playground that is the premier University. I'm not sure of our statistics, whether they imply it is harder for us to get in to Oxbridge or for you to get into Ivies, either way it's very difficult. What I know from the other side of it is that the reason it is so difficult to get in is that people who are very very bright, namely the Dons, Professors, Deans etc want to teach people who want to engage. Not people who want to earn a lot of money, churn out good grades and play the family mascot.
When you are very very bright, it is very very hard to find other very very bright people to play with. Simply because there aren't that many of them. Grades factories do not a genius make. High achievers are not what they are looking for. They happen to find what they are looking for, often in the sea of high achievers, often not. And even if they do manage to ferret out the very very bright from the work harders, this does not imply that those geniuses are engaged. Often by the time they have been through the mill of traditional education the shimmering flame of their intellectual fire has long been extinguished by the dull stultifying thud of the incessant collision between genius and world.
There are of course caveats, the vocational Departments are looking for additional characteristics in their candidates besides raw brain and the five overexcitabilities together in one person, but in general the handful of elite educational institutions were created and are sustained to feed and feed from the very highest intellectual strata of our society. Because it is useful to our society to do that. You can't create IQ from homework or diligence.
Now if you happen to have, in your educational establishment bright people, even very very bright people who are fully engaged with their world you are extremely fortunate. And you are possibly doing something right.
It is my experience however that high achieving schools are not overflowing with bright engaged children. They can often, if you are skilled enough to scratch at the surface, be overflowing with defended, neurotic ( in the clinical sense , not the colloquial one) miserable children who are not allowed to be enough as they are. Even if that means they do not secure a place at Oxford.
I am not suggesting that hard work and diligence are not valuable traits in anyone, I am refuting your point that there are many of these children engaged in an unfettered and natural, as opposed to neurotically engaged, way.
I am also, speaking tautologically, raising the flag of surrender for all of those kids who are not naturally intelligent enough to secure a place at top Universities, so that they be allowed to be enough and let those whose brains work in that bizarre, difficult and completely different way play with their real friends. They don't often get the chance to.
I've come to the conclusion that going to a particular school isn't really a big factor in college admissions. Realize that right now, the admissions rates for HYPS are around 5%. They get a lot of incredible, qualified candidates. If you want in to one of these schools, you have to do more than just be involved with a club/team and have a good GPA/test scores. You need to persuade them that you are intellectually engaged to the point where having you would be an asset to their school. I'm sorry, but saying you're from Woodrow or wherever and you're at the top of your class isn't enough. As far as diversity is concerned, it really matters more whether you have a unique interest or if your a minority -I don't think the school you're at enters the equation.
The point of what I'm saying is that don't think you have a leg up because you go to a certain school.
I will certainly agree that many qualified students are rejected from the top schools. It's almost a crapshot at a certain point. Take solace in this fact: "the average SAT score at the most selective college students apply to turns out to be a better predictor of their earnings than the average SAT score at the college they attended." AKA applying to Yale is more important than getting in.
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), with people who are generally kind, humane, happy for the most part. I want them to feel like, even in this vast and incredible country there is a community where they feel like they belong and where they can contribute and flourish.
). I too, was going to remain firmly outside this whole, elite college admissions bunfight discussion, but heigh-ho I'll chip in too.
