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Old 06-11-2013, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Earth
794 posts, read 1,495,132 times
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I don't care if they can pay off their loan or not but acadamics aren't treated as equals of athletics and that's WRONG.
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Old 06-11-2013, 03:16 PM
 
11,216 posts, read 11,220,540 times
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Originally Posted by GripeWater View Post
I don't care if they can pay off their loan or not but acadamics aren't treated as equals of athletics and that's WRONG.
You are griping.
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Old 06-11-2013, 04:55 PM
 
37 posts, read 115,022 times
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Originally Posted by GripeWater View Post
I don't care if they can pay off their loan or not but acadamics aren't treated as equals of athletics and that's WRONG.
Both you and the person that made the general statement that "Frisco schools outperform Allen" are wrong. I know its easy and fun to bash things you don't understand, but it doesn't excuse that you are factually incorrect. At some point in the future when Plano builds a new stadium that costs 10's of millions of dollars (and that will happen at some point) nobody will suddenly believe that Plano has decided to abandon academics so they can pay for a football stadium. The notion is patently absurd. But I get it - its an easy target, so why bother with facts.

I'll never come on here and say Allen HS is better in academic performance than Plano West for the same reason - its factually incorrect.

However, I do think (so this is my opinion here) we overplay the differences between high schools on this forum a little bit. There are differences, and they may even be statistically significant in some test scores, etc., but for the vast majority of students, their educational experience in Plano, Frisco, Allen, Southlake, etc. will be very, very similar.

Just my two cents.
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:53 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,346 posts, read 6,295,459 times
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Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
So you are predicting the stadium authority will default on the bonds and the School District will have to back stop them?
What stadium authority???

Again, you are confusing this with the Cowboys setup -a completely different beast. There IS NO " Allen Stadium Authority". There is ONLY the district.

As for the revenue, I don't know where TX75007 got his upkeep figure, but it sounds reasonable. If you're saying football alone brings in $1M, you're still $3M short. I don't think rent-a-field and marching band competitions will cover that kind of gap.

I don't doubt the district can afford it, but it's a negative impact on the operations budget, for sure.
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:45 AM
 
92 posts, read 152,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfishingjones View Post
Both
At some point in the future when Plano builds a new stadium that costs 10's of millions of dollars (and that will happen at some point) nobody will suddenly believe that Plano has decided to abandon academics so they can pay for a football stadium. The notion is patently absurd. But I get it - its an easy target, so why bother with facts.
Plano is big enough to easily absorb the impact and divide the expense between their businesses and residents. You can't compare Plano and Allen. Plano has corporations as their residents. However, education is first priority of their district.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:46 AM
 
11,216 posts, read 11,220,540 times
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Originally Posted by Big G View Post
What stadium authority???

Again, you are confusing this with the Cowboys setup -a completely different beast. There IS NO " Allen Stadium Authority". There is ONLY the district.

As for the revenue, I don't know where TX75007 got his upkeep figure, but it sounds reasonable. If you're saying football alone brings in $1M, you're still $3M short. I don't think rent-a-field and marching band competitions will cover that kind of gap.

I don't doubt the district can afford it, but it's a negative impact on the operations budget, for sure.
How did we work ourselves into the notion that the stadium has to be 100% self funding from routine operations? It isn't and was never intended to be so. that said, I have it on reliable authority that the stadium cost about $450,000 to run last year and generated somewhere around $1.6M - I was not aware that corporate sponsorships brought in over $200,000. Also apparently they are sitting on a naming rights offer that would be worth millions over time.

There is no way to know for sure - my guess is the overage is going to be used to retire the debt early.

How does the stadium have any important impact on the schools's operations budget? The stadium was paid for 100% with bond money with no contribution expected from the school's general funds - IIRC this was one of the district's requirements early in the process. And revenue from football and other events far outstrips operating the stadium (power, clean-up maintenance etc.) more about this in a second. I guess it is possible that somewhere along the way the school agreed to pay for a portion of the bonds with operations/general monies - A. if they did I never heard about it B. With a quick look at some articles on the 'net I see no evidence that they did so. C. many schools do pay for a portion of stadium costs from general funds.


1. Regarding me using the term, "stadium authority"; almost certainly the stadium and its operations are named something legally and contractually obliged to contribute a specific portion of revenue or maybe a yearly dollar amount to cover a portion of the debt service. I didn't intend to imply that the stadium itself is a taxing authority or similar - frankly I'm not sure why I need to explain this.


2. I know you didn't say this - but the idea that Allen can't afford the Stadium is 100% absurd. Basically, Allen's citizens "pre-affored" the stadium by agreeing to the 7 cent (it was a long time ago but IIRC it's 7 cents) property tax increase.
The people/hedge funds/bond funds/investment houses that bought the bonds clearly believe that Allen is a good bet to cover the bonds over time.

2a. Counter to your argument this is very similar to the arrangement between The Cowboys and Arlington - that being the taxpayers in both cases agreed to some level of bond money payback.


3. These bond funding arrangements tend to work and work very well. The voters agreed to fund the stadium, and other things, because the school needed improvements. Secondly, people ALWAYS seem to forget that high value improvements like this generate lots of additional tax money. I read somewhere that on football nights Allen sees a $700K increase in economic activity per game due to the new stadium.

Some things we know.
1. The Ballpark was paid off 10 years early
2. Cowboy's Stadium bonds are being paid off early and the economic impact of the stadium has been larger than expected.
3. Unless Allen is hit by a comet that ruins local property values this is a good deal for everyone involved.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Southlake. Don't judge me.
2,885 posts, read 4,088,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Secondly, people ALWAYS seem to forget that high value improvements like this generate lots of additional tax money. I read somewhere that on football nights Allen sees a $700K increase in economic activity per game due to the new stadium.
I don't have a dog in this fight, and I'm asking for general information on this type of topic than for Allen in particular, but on this specific point...I was always leery of these claims for sports stadiums, because although there might be additional economic activity generated at/around the stadium, how much of that is simply pulled from other venues (for example, families go to the game on Friday rather than going shopping/dining out/doing other activities in the area)? I understand if it's pulling in activity from "out-of-town" that otherwise would occur in Plano or Dallas or Richardson or whatever (so net benefit to Allen, net loss to those communities), but if it's primarily a redistribution of activity within Allen then the "benefit" to the city would be muted.

Again, I'm perfectly fine with Allen having their stadium and this isn't an attack on them doing so. The topic has come up in the past re: modifications to stadiums in Chicago (with much bigger numbers and taxpayers footing the bill for improvements that would seem to primarily benefit the private owners of the teams, so the debate there was sharper than here where you have taxpayers involved in effectively paying an "infrastructure" improvement to a public building). I believe you've stated you had a masters in Econ (I just have the bachelors in Econ) and am wondering if you'd researched this either academically or otherwise.

And on a completely different note - 2010 TAKS test data for elementaries (not middles yet, haven't done them) shows Frisco schools overall outperforming Plano schools. I need to do a little more digging to see if this is a "so what" or if Frisco schools just might have trends that would show them gaining on Plano at the high school level.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:23 AM
 
120 posts, read 196,796 times
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TAKS Data?
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:44 AM
 
11,216 posts, read 11,220,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synchronicity View Post
I don't have a dog in this fight, and I'm asking for general information on this type of topic than for Allen in particular, but on this specific point...I was always leery of these claims for sports stadiums, because although there might be additional economic activity generated at/around the stadium, how much of that is simply pulled from other venues (for example, families go to the game on Friday rather than going shopping/dining out/doing other activities in the area)? I understand if it's pulling in activity from "out-of-town" that otherwise would occur in Plano or Dallas or Richardson or whatever (so net benefit to Allen, net loss to those communities), but if it's primarily a redistribution of activity within Allen then the "benefit" to the city would be muted.

Again, I'm perfectly fine with Allen having their stadium and this isn't an attack on them doing so. The topic has come up in the past re: modifications to stadiums in Chicago (with much bigger numbers and taxpayers footing the bill for improvements that would seem to primarily benefit the private owners of the teams, so the debate there was sharper than here where you have taxpayers involved in effectively paying an "infrastructure" improvement to a public building). I believe you've stated you had a masters in Econ (I just have the bachelors in Econ) and am wondering if you'd researched this either academically or otherwise.

And on a completely different note - 2010 TAKS test data for elementaries (not middles yet, haven't done them) shows Frisco schools overall outperforming Plano schools. I need to do a little more digging to see if this is a "so what" or if Frisco schools just might have trends that would show them gaining on Plano at the high school level.

Grand total I've spent maybe 15 minutes looking at articles and 30 minutes at a meeting some years ago listening to a guy explain how Allen arranged this deal.

I don't have the data to know if the $700K figure is a net figure or a gross figure so to speak. What really matters is these deals more or less always perform better than common expectations (AAC, Cowboys Stadium, The Ballpark and now this). I think that is due to the fact these projects are velocity of money increasing/improving investments not standard expenditures.

I've done a 100% about face regarding this type of spending over the years.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
2,480 posts, read 3,008,105 times
Reputation: 4300
Quote:
Originally Posted by TX75007 View Post
Allen has to pay for that 60 million dollar stadium and its 4 million a year upkeep cost. In terms of a per varsity athlete outlay, that is $20,000 a year. That works out to around $2,000 per home in Allen.

What do you think the priority is in Allen?

A smart man would have gotten the businesses in Allen to pay for a stadium and put that bond money into academics that would benefit all students not just a handful of kids.

I can KIND OF understand why Frisco underperforms Plano; the emphasis on small schools plus the constant rezoning that comes with this approach probably prevents Frisco schools building a "critical mass" of the NMSFs that we see in Plano. Allen on the other hand, I dont get at all. They have one school for the whole city. Twice as big as the Plano schools, very affluent probably more so than Plano, yet that schools performance stinks when talking about the top students. That school district should get more criticism than Frisco or McKinney imo.
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