End of suburban sprawl? (Houston, Dallas: apartment, loan, homes)

[happycrow]

Synchronicity,

Pace EDS and Lakewooder, suburban sprawl will end when Dallas is more attractive than Plano, Allen, Irving, or Pantego for people who *don't* have serious money. Us middle-class schlubs need places to live and raise kids which don't suck, too, and there are more of us than there are rich people and childless "creatives" -- and by a large margin. When I was young, hip, and the most important part of my week was career development and getting laid, urban Dallas was a pretty good scene (albeit one which was loud, dirty, stressful, and seriously lacking greenspace). For actually having a family? Sorry, but it's garbage unless you're wealthy.

The urban planners can congratulate themselves and posture on their supposed moral and economic superiority, but the Iron Laws of ROI remain in effect.

[ritholtz]

DFW is expected to double up in 20 yrs. No end to suburban sprawl here any time soon.

[RonnieinDallas]

Originally Posted by winkosmosis

But most consumers and local governments are too ignorant/stupid to demand better suburbs.

Originally Posted by RayStokes

Other countries effortlessly create walkable environments while we increasingly create less walkable environments with gated neighborhoods or neighborhoods with one way in and one way out. The way we still build and zone communities in this country is utterly stupid.

Originally Posted by winkosmosis

No you misunderstand. The town of Plano is good for mass transit because it's an actual old town, and the street grid makes it easier to walk to bus and train stops.

It's the new suburban developments since the 50s have been designed to INHIBIT walking, cycling, and using mass transit.

The alternative is new urbanism, but that hasn't gained a foothold in Texas. AFAIK there is only ONE new urbanist development in Texas, in the town of Kyle. They had to get special exemptions from ordinances to build an old fashioned town with gridded streets and alleys.

Very good points! A lot of times the biggest obstacles to building better neighborhoods are local governments. The notion that new urbanism is some form of heavy handed government, really aggravates me. There's definitely a demand out there for this type of development, but zoning and city ordinances prohibit it. It's usually illegal to build narrow roads, mixed use buildings, and high density walkable development. Cities should be encouraging this type of development, instead of fighting it every step of the way, especially when it's been proven over and over again, that it brings in far more revenue than the traditional sprawl they choose to subsidize.

Sprawlanta seems to have a lot of the same problems Dallas has:

American Makeover Episode 1: SPRAWLANTA - YouTube

Smarter zoning is something I'd like to see more of in DFW.

[Lakewooder]

Where is this idea that "Dallas is seriously lacking greenspace" coming from?

[Komeht]

Originally Posted by happycrow

Synchronicity,

Pace EDS and Lakewooder, suburban sprawl will end when Dallas is more attractive than Plano, Allen, Irving, or Pantego for people who *don't* have serious money. Us middle-class schlubs need places to live and raise kids which don't suck, too, and there are more of us than there are rich people and childless "creatives" -- and by a large margin. When I was young, hip, and the most important part of my week was career development and getting laid, urban Dallas was a pretty good scene (albeit one which was loud, dirty, stressful, and seriously lacking greenspace). For actually having a family? Sorry, but it's garbage unless you're wealthy.

The urban planners can congratulate themselves and posture on their supposed moral and economic superiority, but the Iron Laws of ROI remain in effect.

I lived and worked in central Dallas for 5 years and the only loud, dirty stress places lacking greenspace I came across were on the miles and miles of endless sprawl outside the urban core.

Downtown itself is mostly very pleasant, uptown incredibly clean, there are pocket parts everywhere. My urban neighborhood 2 miles from the CBD was gracious, green, quiet and lovely. There were several pocket parks within a 5 minute walk of both my house and my work.

However, drive out to Harry Hines, or up upper Greenville or on Highway 12 and the environment became immediately stressful, incredibly loud with the sound of rushing cars everywhere, seedy and depressing as hell.

Sanctuary from this madness can be found in the center city and in the rural areas on the other side of the sprawl - the sprawl itself - a nightmare to be avoided at all costs.

[ETex2]

Until all developable land is used up within 100 miles or so of Dallas, there will be no end to sprawl IMHO. Light rail has already made living in the burbs more accessible, and in the next 30-40 years, this will evolve into high speed rail for commuters. The suburbs are looking to create their own urban walkable environments, but making LOTS of mistakes along the way. Rowlett is a prime example - their motto in recent years is "rezone it and they will come". But that has failed miserably and as a result of city leaders' having a pie in the sky outlook, they've destroyed some property values in their wake. For instance - the creation of townhouse zoning when there was ZERO demand, and "transportation-related" zoning which made perfectly good warehouses in good condition completely worthless if they happened to go vacant. Certain steps in the right direction have been made, but some city fathers do not want to accept that the most successful types of development near light rail transit centers is multi-family housing. Which of course, in all likelihood be in decay and full of Section 8 residents in 25 or 30 years when those structures are no longer trendy and fashionable.

[Lakewooder]

Part of the reason it sprawls is this worship for "newness"... you don't see a lot of people on here recommending, Garland, Irving, Carrollton, Arlington, HEB, Grand Prairie, Mesquite etc...those were at one time the places to go. Unless a suburb has something exceptional it peaks and then begans to have problems. That just feeds the next suburb/exurb farther out which is "new".

[happycrow]

Originally Posted by Lakewooder

Where is this idea that "Dallas is seriously lacking greenspace" coming from?

From all the places working and middle-class people who are thinking of starting families can afford to live in urban Dallas -- speaking as a guy who gave it a very serious go, and eventually left because I just couldn't stand all the noise, concrete, and pollution (let's not get started on uptown. Uptown is gorgeous, and clearly not intended for my demographic). The wealthy get plenty of green, but trash and bum-infested pocket-parks (downtown? clean? Komeht, are you kidding?) are no place you'd ever let your kids play unsupervised, unless you want to show up on CNN.

[RonnieinDallas]

Originally Posted by happycrow

, but trash and bum-infested pocket-parks (downtown? clean? Komeht, are you kidding?) are no place you'd ever let your kids play unsupervised, unless you want to show up on CNN.

When's the last time you've been to DT Dallas? Obviously, not recently. There are tons of kids playing at the CLEAN & SAFE Klyde Warren Park, Main Street Park, Exall Park, and Belo Gardens.

Originally Posted by Lakewooder

Part of the reason it sprawls is this worship for "newness"... you don't see a lot of people on here recommending, Garland, Irving, Carrollton, Arlington, HEB, Grand Prairie, Mesquite etc...those were at one time the places to go. Unless a suburb has something exceptional it peaks and then begans to have problems. That just feeds the next suburb/exurb farther out which is "new".

Very true, and at the expense of shorter commutes(more time with family), more activities, and a better chance at building equity.

As a long time DFW Resident I've noticed a cycle:

(1) Developers start building in a rural area, it usually starts off as nice custom, homes, then starts to fade into massive tract developments. People rush in to all that's new and shiny.

(2) Retail follows all the new rooftops.

(3) The people have kids, and the kids go off to college.

(4) The kids don't come back to the now decades OLD neighborhoods, instead they move to an urban area or a newer and shinier exurb.

(5) The older wealthier residents move close to kids in exurbs or down size to urban area, or stay put.

(6) The once shiny stores and strip malls move to follow the money or just close, suburban blight starts ramping up.

(7) Property values stagnate or plummet, and once nice homes become rental units. Schools deteriorate.

(8) Eventually structure values drop low enough for developers to tear down existing homes and replace them with bigger new ones. Retail follows

(9) Step 8 will never happen in many far out suburbs

Lots of Dallas neighborhoods have seen one full cycle. I fear that most of the sprawl in Dallas will never make it past step 6, and deteriorate.

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by RonnieinDallas

When's the last time you've been to DT Dallas? Obviously, not recently. There are tons of kids playing at the CLEAN & SAFE Klyde Warren Park, Main Street Park, Exall Park, and Belo Gardens.



Very true, and at the expense of shorter commutes(more time with family), more activities, and a better chance at building equity.

As a long time DFW Resident I've noticed a cycle:

(1) Developers start building in a rural area, it usually starts off as nice custom, homes, then starts to fade into massive tract developments. People rush in to all that's new and shiny.

(2) Retail follows all the new rooftops.

(3) The people have kids, and the kids go off to college.

(4) The kids don't come back to the now decades OLD neighborhoods, instead they move to an urban area or a newer and shinier exurb.

(5) The older wealthier residents move close to kids in exurbs or down size to urban area, or stay put.

(6) The once shiny stores and strip malls move to follow the money or just close, suburban blight starts ramping up.

(7) Property values stagnate or plummet, and once nice homes become rental units. Schools deteriorate.

(8) Eventually structure values drop low enough for developers to tear down existing homes and replace them with bigger new ones. Retail follows

(9) Step 8 will never happen in many far out suburbs

Lots of Dallas neighborhoods have seen one full cycle. I fear that most of the sprawl in Dallas will never make it past step 6, and deteriorate.

We're on the upswing in Richardson but we definitely went through steps 1-6. Property values didn't plummet but they did stagnate somewhat and now they're on the upswing. We're already seeing teardowns in my neighborhood in Richardson, though thankfully they are confined to a very small section with large, creekside lots. Let's hope it doesn't spread further, though we do have a brand-new wart on Newberry courtesy of Shaddock & Caldwell.