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Old 01-06-2014, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Dallas TX & AL Gulf Coast
6,848 posts, read 11,755,552 times
Reputation: 33430

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big G View Post
Keep in mind, Garland HS serves as the G/T magnet high school for the entire Garland ISD. That's going to boost the numbers for that particular campus (and lower the ones at the other campuses). In effect, the top-performing kids across the entire district are concentrated at one campus - Garland HS.

In contrast, Woodrow has the top-performing kids in their area of DISD siphoned off by TAG, SEM, etc.
While Garland HS does serve as the G/T magnet with the IB program for the GISD, how does that explain the other four GISD high schools that were siphoned off of their best and brightest, but still had a higher avg SAT than Woodrow? After all, Woodrow does still have the IB program as well.
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,825 posts, read 4,434,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bstyet2be View Post
while garland hs does serve as the g/t magnet with the ib program for the gisd, how does that explain the other four gisd high schools that were siphoned off of their best and brightest, but still had a higher avg sat than woodrow? After all, woodrow does still have the ib program as well.
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It's all the non-white less affluent kids!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:42 AM
 
38 posts, read 82,521 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by BstYet2Be
While Garland HS does serve as the G/T magnet with the IB program for the GISD, how does that explain the other four GISD high schools that were siphoned off of their best and brightest, but still had a higher avg SAT than Woodrow? After all, Woodrow does still have the IB program as well.
Thanks for the info. Garland High's numbers beat Woodrow's across the board within all subgroups and with a similar level of ED kids. I think that's definition of a better school in academic terms. Garland High sits near the bottom of the top third of all area public schools. That is solid work that deserves respect. Woodrow sits near the top of the bottom third. The middle third is hit and miss, but that bottom third is really struggling. It would be a lot of work for any school in the bottom third to improve enough to match Garland HS.

With Woodrow's feeder pattern gentrifying and Roberts Elementary shifting out, Woodrow's total numbers will tick up as their percentage of white students goes up. But, if Woodrow can't do a better job with all of its students, including its white students who are testing at a very average profile, it will never be a good (top third) school. Many other local neighborhood comprehensive high schools do a better job than Woodrow given a similar or higher concentration of ED or ESL students.

All high schools have inflows and outflows of different types of students. Garland has an inflow of TAG. Woodrow has an outflow for TAG, but an inflow for transfers in from other DISD comprehensives looking to get away from an even lower ranked neighborhood school. You have to judge a school on its whole performance.

HPISD faces this. Almost 15-20% of HP/UP kids go private. Those private school kids will on average be higher scorers and more affluent. On a percentage basis, HPISD gets about 1.5% to 2.5% NMSF. Last year around 8 of 505. 1.5% is okay, 2.5% is good, but less than you would predict for a district that has an average 1792 SAT score (81st percentile for all test takers) and is highly affluent. I've never heard anyone in HPISD complaining about private schools. Instead, they do a good job with all their students and are the #1 ranked public.

Hockaday (120), St. Mark's (90), and Cistercian (40) together graduate about 250 kids a year. They had 50 NMSF for 2014 or 20% of all students. I would guess 6-7% of those 250 are from HP/UP. Are those people wasting their money or racist to leave their public school? No, they are just looking for the best education possible for their kids. They are leaving a very good school to go to a better one.

The posts you read about people who leave Woodrow or Hillcrest to go Bishop Lynch or Lakehill, that they are wasting their money or poorly informed or racists? That's junk not based on data. BL and Lakehill are not elite prep schools like Hockaday, St. Mark's, and Cistercian. But based on objective data, they are better schools. People leaving a poor to average school to go to a better one. I hope Woodrow gets to #1, but parents decide on today's conditions.
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:48 PM
 
16,087 posts, read 41,011,493 times
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Many people believe in public education and don't want their children to go to private schools. Lakehill graduated 17 seniors last year. Obviously there is no great exodus to Lakehill.

In fact Woodrow gained "half the sophomore girls from Lakehill" last year from the chat I heard. Many of them came for IB but couldn't handle the rigor, so dropped back to AP. But they have stayed at Woodrow. Woodrow has gained about 100 white students over the last couple of years. Overall, school enrollment is up more than 200 since the school was redesigned and accredited as an IB school. As far as the impact of IB vs. say Garland, its program has been established for many years and this is the first year we have seniors - 35, with more in the lower grades: Woodrow begins fourth year of International Baccalaureate, J.L. Long is on its way » Lakewood

So I don't know where you you get the idea that people are leaving. If parents are deciding, then they are deciding to go to Woodrow.
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX & AL Gulf Coast
6,848 posts, read 11,755,552 times
Reputation: 33430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakewooder View Post
Overall, school enrollment is up more than 200 since the school was redesigned and accredited as an IB school. As far as the impact of IB vs. say Garland, its program has been established for many years and this is the first year we have seniors - 35, with more in the lower grades: Woodrow begins fourth year of International Baccalaureate, J.L. Long is on its way » Lakewood
True, Lakewooder, good luck with your IB program at Woodrow!

Garland HS - IB World School since January 1989

Woodrow Wilson HS - IB World School since March 2011


For a complete list of all IB primary, middle, and diploma schools in Texas, see: International Baccalaureate World Schools - Texas
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:21 PM
 
16,087 posts, read 41,011,493 times
Reputation: 6374
Thanks, BstYet2Be.

I think you will find that I have always given props to Garland High. They also have a lot of history and tradition, along with a long record of athletic successes. GHS has been helpful with our school in many ways to lead us through the application, candidacy, site visit, confirmation and accreditation process for IB.

Our principal, Kyle Richardson, had children go through IB at Garland High and our school board trustee, Mike Morath, is a graduate of that program. He wants all our feeder schools to be IB schools.
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:20 AM
 
38 posts, read 82,521 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakewooder View Post
Many people believe in public education and don't want their children to go to private schools. Lakehill graduated 17 seniors last year. Obviously there is no great exodus to Lakehill.

In fact Woodrow gained "half the sophomore girls from Lakehill" last year from the chat I heard. Many of them came for IB but couldn't handle the rigor, so dropped back to AP. But they have stayed at Woodrow. Woodrow has gained about 100 white students over the last couple of years. Overall, school enrollment is up more than 200 since the school was redesigned and accredited as an IB school. As far as the impact of IB vs. say Garland, its program has been established for many years and this is the first year we have seniors - 35, with more in the lower grades: Woodrow begins fourth year of International Baccalaureate, J.L. Long is on its way » Lakewood

So I don't know where you you get the idea that people are leaving. If parents are deciding, then they are deciding to go to Woodrow.
A majority/near majority of white students over the past 5 years have left the Woodrow feeder pattern. I showed the K vs 5th enrollment numbers for Lakewood El. The same holds for Stonewall. In a previous post, I showed the drop in white enrollment between 5th and 6th at Lakewood El. and Stonewall vs Long. That is the leaving I was referring to in my post. There is no argument against actual numbers. I showed the trend line as well for K to 5th. I think the trend line for retaining white kids has a positive slope, but it is still a fact that K to 7th retention of white students is a minority.

I also explained how you can estimate what type of students leave based on the 5 year NMSF rate at Woodrow. You didn't address that either. It's not really anything to argue about. Based on NMSF, the probability that the kids (white and nonwhite) leaving the Woodrow feeder are smarter and more affluent than the ones staying in the pattern is near 100%. If you run the numbers with NMSF plus commended, you get the same result. Mr. Irby at Woodrow can explain the math to you if you don't believe me.

I never said anything about any exodus to Lakehill. (Lakehill does have a very small high school, less than 80 students I believe.) I said that Lakehill outperformed (or crushed) Woodrow in SAT scores and NMSF for all of their students vs Woodrow's white students. That is a true statement. Your story about girls leaving Lakehill doesn't address my argument. When Lakehill's scores and NMSF rates fall under Woodrow's, let me know. That would be a huge leap for Woodrow.

As for the IB program at Woodrow, it is indeed new. I think Dr. Ritchie is a strong leader, and I have high hopes for the IB program raising SAT scores and attracting better students. Time will tell.

I went to to local public schools for elementary and high school, Catholic for middle school. I understand the value of public schools to our neighborhood. But when you don't present an accurate reflection of our schools, parents can tell, especially the type of parents that DISD needs to keep. Middle and upper class parents are not interested in ACT improvement rates or college readiness improvement rates. They want complete matriculation lists per class, average SAT scores for kids in IB program or AP programs, all school 25th and 75th percentile SAT scores, distribution of AP scores, and the results when the IB programs scores come in. They want accurate data to help them decide what is best for their kids.

Lakewooder, when you say Woodrow has "a critical mass of students taking AP and IB courses going on to great colleges" (as you did Monday), that is a misleading statement. A reader might take that to mean you have 30-40 graduates going on to top 25 colleges (based on a recognized list, say the US News list of top 25 national universities. Not a perfect list, but a metric we can use). A critical mass seems to indicate a significant number. But I'm betting the average number of kids going from Woodrow to top 25 is nowhere near 30-40, but 5-7. That is fine, but just say it straight. In the long run, you help Woodrow the most by giving information with context and transparency.
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Old 01-08-2014, 12:00 PM
 
13,194 posts, read 28,107,679 times
Reputation: 13124
Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeDad View Post
A majority/near majority of white students over the past 5 years have left the Woodrow feeder pattern. I showed the K vs 5th enrollment numbers for Lakewood El. The same holds for Stonewall. In a previous post, I showed the drop in white enrollment between 5th and 6th at Lakewood El. and Stonewall vs Long. That is the leaving I was referring to in my post. There is no argument against actual numbers. I showed the trend line as well for K to 5th. I think the trend line for retaining white kids has a positive slope, but it is still a fact that K to 7th retention of white students is a minority.

I also explained how you can estimate what type of students leave based on the 5 year NMSF rate at Woodrow. You didn't address that either. It's not really anything to argue about. Based on NMSF, the probability that the kids (white and nonwhite) leaving the Woodrow feeder are smarter and more affluent than the ones staying in the pattern is near 100%. If you run the numbers with NMSF plus commended, you get the same result. Mr. Irby at Woodrow can explain the math to you if you don't believe me.

I never said anything about any exodus to Lakehill. (Lakehill does have a very small high school, less than 80 students I believe.) I said that Lakehill outperformed (or crushed) Woodrow in SAT scores and NMSF for all of their students vs Woodrow's white students. That is a true statement. Your story about girls leaving Lakehill doesn't address my argument. When Lakehill's scores and NMSF rates fall under Woodrow's, let me know. That would be a huge leap for Woodrow.

As for the IB program at Woodrow, it is indeed new. I think Dr. Ritchie is a strong leader, and I have high hopes for the IB program raising SAT scores and attracting better students. Time will tell.

I went to to local public schools for elementary and high school, Catholic for middle school. I understand the value of public schools to our neighborhood. But when you don't present an accurate reflection of our schools, parents can tell, especially the type of parents that DISD needs to keep. Middle and upper class parents are not interested in ACT improvement rates or college readiness improvement rates. They want complete matriculation lists per class, average SAT scores for kids in IB program or AP programs, all school 25th and 75th percentile SAT scores, distribution of AP scores, and the results when the IB programs scores come in. They want accurate data to help them decide what is best for their kids.

Lakewooder, when you say Woodrow has "a critical mass of students taking AP and IB courses going on to great colleges" (as you did Monday), that is a misleading statement. A reader might take that to mean you have 30-40 graduates going on to top 25 colleges (based on a recognized list, say the US News list of top 25 national universities. Not a perfect list, but a metric we can use). A critical mass seems to indicate a significant number. But I'm betting the average number of kids going from Woodrow to top 25 is nowhere near 30-40, but 5-7. That is fine, but just say it straight. In the long run, you help Woodrow the most by giving information with context and transparency.
Bravo!!!!
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Old 01-08-2014, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Earth
794 posts, read 1,663,380 times
Reputation: 519
By the way you can't rate a school solely on its IB program. Not all students want to do IB and not many can handle the program. A good school offers several options for students of every level. A majority of students give up IB after 10th grade, you can't pick a school for their only program which by the way isn't even established or have a high performance record. My kid decided to leave IB program from PESH to maintain his GPA , luckily he had top school of DFW,PWSH as his home school where he performed much better in AP and Honors classes.
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Old 01-08-2014, 12:41 PM
 
78 posts, read 115,987 times
Reputation: 366
Quote:
Lakewooder, when you say Woodrow has "a critical mass of students taking AP and IB courses going on to great colleges" (as you did Monday), that is a misleading statement. A reader might take that to mean you have 30-40 graduates going on to top 25 colleges (based on a recognized list, say the US News list of top 25 national universities. Not a perfect list, but a metric we can use). A critical mass seems to indicate a significant number. But I'm betting the average number of kids going from Woodrow to top 25 is nowhere near 30-40, but 5-7.
Out of curiosity, can someone tell us approximately how many students go to top 25 colleges from Highland Park, Carroll (Southlake), Plano West, and Coppell, and, if possible, which schools?
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