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Old 06-25-2014, 04:51 PM
 
Location: North Texas
24,577 posts, read 34,233,458 times
Reputation: 28402

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Who is going to pay for this and how much will it cost? TX DOT isn't going to pay.
Tx DOT doesn't pay for anything anyway. WE (the taxpayers) do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescreen73 View Post
What? You mean to tell me a bunch of folks heavily connected to the real estate business endorse a plan that would tear down an elevated highway and free up a bunch of primo land near downtown for...wait for it...real estate development? Shocker!
This.
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:34 PM
 
9,261 posts, read 9,892,948 times
Reputation: 7987
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
Tx DOT doesn't pay for anything anyway. WE (the taxpayers) do.

So you want a tollroad?
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Dallas
2,130 posts, read 2,680,731 times
Reputation: 3512
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
That's absolutely absurd. TXDOT says it would cost $1.9 billion to removed I-345, remake it as a surface street, complete the ties ins to the north and south etc.
TXDOT's estimate is absured. Prior to that they claimed completely removing it and burrying it would only cost a $1 billion.

Quote:
Assistant city manager Jill Jordan says TxDOT told the city it will cost $100 million to rehab the bridge, as opposed to the $1 billion it says it would cost to take it down and replace it with, say, a tunnel or some other car-moving option
TxDOT tells Dallas it will repair and not remove the highway separating Deep Ellum and downtown | Dallas Morning News

Then this:

Quote:
TxDOT estimating a cost of approximately $1.9 billion to fund demolition and associated street and bridge improvements. And it’s a time-consuming process as well. Similar projects have taken up to 10 years to complete
Complete statement from Mayor Rawlings on tearing down I-345 | Dallas Morning News

They should just be honest and say they don't want to do it, because they're in business of creating billions of dollars in debt to build more highways, and not to tear them down and save tax payers money on unwanted infrastructure. Instead, they throw out as much misinformation as they can. Michael Morris the transportation director for the NCTCOG even went as far as calling the proposal "racist"! When it gets to that, the "pro highway at any cost crowd" loses all credibility.

Quote:
“They were all white, they were very wealthy and I don’t think any of them live in the neighborhood,”
Michael Morris, The Misinformationist | FrontBurner | D Magazine
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MODERATOR FOR AUSTIN, DALLAS, FORT LAUDERDALE, & TEXAS
Terms of Service/FAQ/Information for Realtors
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Old 06-25-2014, 09:50 PM
 
9,261 posts, read 9,892,948 times
Reputation: 7987
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieinDallas View Post
TXDOT's estimate is absured. Prior to that they claimed completely removing it and burrying it would only cost a $1 billion.


TxDOT tells Dallas it will repair and not remove the highway separating Deep Ellum and downtown | Dallas Morning News

Then this:



Complete statement from Mayor Rawlings on tearing down I-345 | Dallas Morning News

They should just be honest and say they don't want to do it, because they're in business of creating billions of dollars in debt to build more highways, and not to tear them down and save tax payers money on unwanted infrastructure. Instead, they throw out as much misinformation as they can. Michael Morris the transportation director for the NCTCOG even went as far as calling the proposal "racist"! When it gets to that, the "pro highway at any cost crowd" loses all credibility.



Michael Morris, The Misinformationist | FrontBurner | D Magazine
Ronnie you are a very nice and very interesting guy. That said for anyone on your side of this argument to claim the other side is foisting disinformation is blindingly ironic. The original $90/100MM removal and rebuild number floated by Patrick Kennedy was straight up disinformation. There is ZERO chance he's so out of touch that he believed that. It was a way to get people on board.

It's up to your side to fund a study maybe along with the city that puts some hard numbers to this idea.
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Dallas
2,130 posts, read 2,680,731 times
Reputation: 3512
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Ronnie you are a very nice and very interesting guy. That said for anyone on your side of this argument to claim the other side is foisting disinformation is blindingly ironic. The original $90/100MM removal and rebuild number floated by Patrick Kennedy was straight up disinformation. There is ZERO chance he's so out of touch that he believed that. It was a way to get people on board.

It's up to your side to fund a study maybe along with the city that puts some hard numbers to this idea.
You're still going to defend TXDOT's numbers? Seriously?

Patrick's numbers are based on similar projects from around the country and the world. Seoul, South Korea managed to remove 8.5 miles of highway and install a park for $280 million.

Quote:
SEOUL, SOUTH KOREA
Cheonggyecheon

Removed 8.5 miles of elevated freeway and resurfaced buried stream
Cost $281 million or $33 million/mile
Number of vehicles in area dropped 43% afterwards
50,000 pedestrians visit park each day and 250,000 on weekends
Reduced carcinogenic airborne particulate matter 21%
Reduced summer temperatures 8 degrees Fahrenheit
Added 113,000 jobs along corridor
Long-term benefits expected to exceed $25 billion
Research - A New Dallas :: A New Dallas

There is no reason for 1.4 miles of I-345 removal to cost $2 billion. That's nearly four times the amount of an 8.5 mile highway removal. Therefore, Patrick Kennedy's number ($100 million) is FAR more realistic than TXDOT's massively inflated $2 billion. No one seriously believes the removal would be the most expensive option.

Not only is it the cheapest, it may also qualify for TIGER grants, and potentially bring $4 billion in development to downtown. Plus, developers will be buying the reclaimed land from TXDOT
at a premium.

Economics - A New Dallas :: A New Dallas
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Terms of Service/FAQ/Information for Realtors

Last edited by RonnieinDallas; 06-25-2014 at 11:32 PM..
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:44 PM
 
9,261 posts, read 9,892,948 times
Reputation: 7987
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieinDallas View Post
You're still going to defend TXDOT's numbers? Seriously?

Patrick's numbers are based on similar projects from around the country and the world. Seoul, South Korea managed to remove 8.5 miles of highway and install a park for $280 million.



Research - A New Dallas :: A New Dallas

There is no reason for 1.4 miles of I-345 removal to cost $2 billion. That's nearly four times the amount of an 8.5 mile highway removal. Therefore, Patrick Kennedy's number ($100 million) is FAR more realistic than TXDOT's massively inflated $2 billion. No one seriously believes the removal would be the most expensive option.

Not only is it the cheapest, it may also qualify for TIGER grants, and potentially bring $4 billion in development to downtown. Plus, developers will be buying the reclaimed land from TXDOT
at a premium.

Economics - A New Dallas :: A New Dallas


Are you really claiming that removing I-345 repurposing it into some sort of street, tying in a number of perpendicular streets and also tying in freeways/overpasses to the north and south and other work would cost less than fixing I-345? That's just absurd.

The Korean project began more than ten years ago.

TXDOT's numbers are for removal and tying in the freeways at both ends and somehow connecting 75 and Woodall Rogers.

Kennedy pretends that none of these things need to be done or that they will be free I guess. Removing the darned thing alone would cost well over $90MM. The $65MM figure quoted by your second source is just crazy. And they of course only speak to the tear out costs - no mention of repurposing.

Until your side pays for a real study by traffic types the TXDOT numbers are the best we have. You guys saying the numbers are wrong and TXDOT people are crazy shills etc. makes you guys look/sound silly and frankly not serious.
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Old 06-26-2014, 05:07 AM
 
993 posts, read 2,008,779 times
Reputation: 1111
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Are you really claiming that removing I-345 repurposing it into some sort of street, tying in a number of perpendicular streets and also tying in freeways/overpasses to the north and south and other work would cost less than fixing I-345? That's just absurd.

The Korean project began more than ten years ago.

TXDOT's numbers are for removal and tying in the freeways at both ends and somehow connecting 75 and Woodall Rogers.

Kennedy pretends that none of these things need to be done or that they will be free I guess. Removing the darned thing alone would cost well over $90MM. The $65MM figure quoted by your second source is just crazy. And they of course only speak to the tear out costs - no mention of repurposing.

Until your side pays for a real study by traffic types the TXDOT numbers are the best we have. You guys saying the numbers are wrong and TXDOT people are crazy shills etc. makes you guys look/sound silly and frankly not serious.
For those that don't frequent this area, the roads underneath have already been or are already being constructed. The biggest deal was the splitting of central into Cesar Chavez and Good-Lattimer and Good-Lattimer has already been done, and Caesar Chavez is well underway. Caesar Chavez actually connects to I-45 south of downtown and has direct ramps to I-30. Live Oak and Gaston are being rebuilt under the freeway as well. What would be need to be done is beautification of the other roads and making the crossings more pedestrian friendly.
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Old 06-26-2014, 05:48 AM
 
9,261 posts, read 9,892,948 times
Reputation: 7987
Quote:
Originally Posted by rantanamo View Post
For those that don't frequent this area, the roads underneath have already been or are already being constructed. The biggest deal was the splitting of central into Cesar Chavez and Good-Lattimer and Good-Lattimer has already been done, and Caesar Chavez is well underway. Caesar Chavez actually connects to I-45 south of downtown and has direct ramps to I-30. Live Oak and Gaston are being rebuilt under the freeway as well. What would be need to be done is beautification of the other roads and making the crossings more pedestrian friendly.
Do you believe TXDOT didn't take these things into consideration? The roads running under I345 would have to be tied into the new boulevard running north and south - that does not just happen on it's own.
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:51 AM
 
16,092 posts, read 37,219,012 times
Reputation: 6280
I'm actually old enough to remember the way things were before this was built. At that time, the terminus of Central emptied into downtown - you had arrived. The Blue Cross headquarters building (with its interesting message sign) was at that terminus. After the elevated monstrosity was constructed, they moved out to Richardson.
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:01 AM
 
1,789 posts, read 2,084,888 times
Reputation: 1719
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Are you really claiming that removing I-345 repurposing it into some sort of street, tying in a number of perpendicular streets and also tying in freeways/overpasses to the north and south and other work would cost less than fixing I-345? That's just absurd.

The Korean project began more than ten years ago.

TXDOT's numbers are for removal and tying in the freeways at both ends and somehow connecting 75 and Woodall Rogers.

Kennedy pretends that none of these things need to be done or that they will be free I guess. Removing the darned thing alone would cost well over $90MM. The $65MM figure quoted by your second source is just crazy. And they of course only speak to the tear out costs - no mention of repurposing.

Until your side pays for a real study by traffic types the TXDOT numbers are the best we have. You guys saying the numbers are wrong and TXDOT people are crazy shills etc. makes you guys look/sound silly and frankly not serious.
You have a lot of faith in TXDOT.
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