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We have a GE 100 amp panel in the laundry closet in our kitchen of a 1964 home we recently purchased.
It appears visually that the existing mast is pulling on the roof and needs to be replaced along with the metal conduit. We are also planning on replacing old HVAC system and are concerned 100 amps will not be sufficient.
We understand that we will need to move the panel from it's current grandfathered location (it's currently in the laundry closet where there is a w/d) to outside as our garage is on the other side of the house and would make the bid below even more pricey.
I am not thrilled panel has to move outside. Is outside or garage the only options for placement? This is a 1-story 2300Sf home.
The relocation of the dryer outlet is because right now it is on the same exterior wall below the panel but sitting up well above the dryer and is just plain ugly and visible where it is and I want it moved lower behind the dryer out of sight.
I asked the electrician who gave us this quote if he was getting a permit I assume the answer to that question was no when he said "We can do the upgrade without having to bother the power company."
We are not comfortable with this. Shouldn't this work be permitted and be coordinated with Oncor?
I have left him a few messages and sent emails that we want this work permitted but had no response. I also asked but have not received answers about: What make & model panel & breakers will you be installing? Will new outside box have a place for a lock? Will it be placed at a height where we can reach the breaker? Do we need to have a concrete pad as a step-up if ground is wet? Since we are upgrading to 200 amp are the service entrance wires & drop wires also rated for 200 amps or better?
This is what was on the $2K quote originally sent before the permitting question arose:
Upgrade electrical service to 120/240 volts, 200 amps, single-phase.
Remove existing circuit breaker panel in utility closet.
Install new circuit breaker panel outside.
Replace existing meter base and conduit riser with new 200 amp equipment.
Bring grounding of the new service up to current Code.
Install steel support cable on conduit riser above roof line to prevent further damage to conduit due to tension on overhead powerline.
Relocate existing dryer outlet to center behind dryer. If necessary, bring grounding of the dryer circuit up to current Code. (Current Code requires a four-wire circuit with separate neutral and ground wires for all dryers.)
We asked about installing a new junction box in the attic for wiring splices so that the current interior panel box can be removed instead of left where it is and that increased the quote by $1,000.
Bottom line:
Does replacing the mast and outside work mandate a panel replacement?
Do we definitely need to increase to 200 amps if we know we will be doing some updating down the road?
Are we correct in wanting this permitted & if so how approx much more should this add to the cost?
Is the quote for the work above about right? Is additional $1K to move junction box to attic in line?
If we wanted to move the panel to the garage, does it become cost prohibitive and if we have to move outside, how do we best secure it?
Here's the rub: we have used this (master) electrician in the past for minor work and have been very pleased. He also happened to start doing some minor work for us last week and was supposed to come back this afternoon but sent a text this morning that he is not sure he can make it today as van is running badly.
Seems like I pissed him off by telling him we want the panel & associated work permitted and I am not sure why but before we move on and try to find someone else to get a quote from and possibly finish the work he started (which I am not too happy about) I wanted to get some feedback about this.
permit I assume the answer to that question was no when he said "We can do the upgrade without having to bother the power company."
There seems to be some confusion here: A permit is through the city, I think they cost $80 and up for electrical work. That means a city inspector will come out to check the work, not an employee of Oncor. I believe one is needed for all electrical work done in your home beyond changing an existing light switch or outlet. Normally the permit has to be posted in a window the inspector can see.
Shoring up your mast doesn't really count as electrical work necessarily. It is more of a construction-type task.
Whether or not you have to speak to Oncor generally depends on if anything between the mast and the line itself is changing. I doubt going from a 100 to 200 amp system would require any changes by Oncor, moving the box itself maybe.
I thought Oncor had to come out to disconnect the power and reconnect the power if a new panel is being installed,etc.
But why would you be concerned about that? Are you concerned your electrician is going to electricute himself or about the contents of your fridge or what? You are paying him - let him deal with that.
We have a GE 100 amp panel in the laundry closet in our kitchen of a 1964 home we recently purchased.
It appears visually that the existing mast is pulling on the roof and needs to be replaced along with the metal conduit. We are also planning on replacing old HVAC system and are concerned 100 amps will not be sufficient.
The minimum required service Amperage for a building is 100 Amps. Of course that does not necessarily account for what all you might add to the load. That is where the Electrician should be reviewing your electrical usage and needs and providing guidance as to whether you would need to upgrade above 100 Amps or not. That 100 Amps is not necessarily expected to be drawn at peak load so unless you are planning to add a lot of continuous load items or frequently used items the 100 Amps might be sufficient even with a new HVAC system. Again the Electrician should be reviewing this and providing guidance.
We understand that we will need to move the panel from it's current grandfathered location (it's currently in the laundry closet where there is a w/d) to outside as our garage is on the other side of the house and would make the bid below even more pricey.
You may also not "need" to move the panel. It is not necessarily in the best of locations but unless you are planning more extensive electrical work than just moving the dryer outlet down and replacing the service mast the building codes would not require a "need" to move the panel. Of course the work you need to have done (replace service mast) and want to be done (move dryer outlet) would most likely require a permit from the City of Dallas and they can best advise if any of these two items, or any other desired work, would trigger any requirements to move the panel.
I am not thrilled panel has to move outside. Is outside or garage the only options for placement? This is a 1-story 2300Sf home.
No these are not the only potential locations but there are requirements where they can not be moved to. Placing it in the garage or outside might be the least destructive and costly options though. Again this is where the Electrician should be advising you and explaining not only why it should be placed there but also why it can not be placed in another location(s).
The relocation of the dryer outlet is because right now it is on the same exterior wall below the panel but sitting up well above the dryer and is just plain ugly and visible where it is and I want it moved lower behind the dryer out of sight.
It is a large expense to open drywall and move the outlet down and then close up, texture, and paint the old hole. Instead of moving the outlet down have you considered placing a cowling over it, with an access panel face, that can cover over it and be painted or otherwise decorated just to cover it over? After all it is in the laundry closet/room and not out in a living room.
I asked the electrician who gave us this quote if he was getting a permit I assume the answer to that question was no when he said "We can do the upgrade without having to bother the power company."
We are not comfortable with this. Shouldn't this work be permitted and be coordinated with Oncor?
ABSOLUTELY!! Below part of the quote is to replace the meter base and of course you will be replacing the Service Drop mast. Both of these should be coordinated with Oncor and the meter base replacement, without a doubt, is a permitted activity. Also just because the Service entrance cables, meter base, and service mast are replaced DOES NOT ensure that the Service Drop from the Oncor pole is capable of handling above 100 Amps. The weakest link in the system is what will determine what your maximum service rating is. What I would highly recommend is to call Oncor and ask them to provide you with the documentation displaying what the Service Drop from their service pole has been configured for. A 1964 home here in Dallas is borderline but expected to be configured and capable of at least 100 Amp service. However we have found homes of this age that were not capable of 100 Amp service so calling Oncor is a must! Another thing to take into consideration is to replace the meter base the electrician will have to break Oncor's seal on the meter base. If Oncor ever finds this it is difficult to tell what they would do.
I have left him a few messages and sent emails that we want this work permitted but had no response. I also asked but have not received answers about: What make & model panel & breakers will you be installing? Will new outside box have a place for a lock? Will it be placed at a height where we can reach the breaker? Do we need to have a concrete pad as a step-up if ground is wet? Since we are upgrading to 200 amp are the service entrance wires & drop wires also rated for 200 amps or better?
One of the biggest problems we see when inspecting homes are the unpermitted work that is not properly performed. Many people feel the purpose of the permit system is just to collect fees for the City but that is just not true! Through permits the City can also control the work to make sure it is safely performed, safely not only for you and your family but also the home! If any electrician or other tradesperson is trying to circumvent the permit system I would most certainly RUN not walk away and find a tradesperson who has no fear of permits since they are the ones being held to proper standards.
While we are on the subject of permits and tradespeople you should be aware that Dallas does maintain a list of contractors that are authorized to perform work within the City. You can find this on the Building Inspections WEB page Welcome to the City of Dallas, Texas - Building Inspection . You can find a list of all registered contractors here under the "Registered Contractors" link Welcome to the City of Dallas, Texas - Building Inspection . Dallas ensures that all registered contractors have proper insurance as well as all other State and Dallas requirements to be met. This is to protect you and a method for Dallas to control contractors and prevent problem contractors from performing work in the City. You should check your electricians name against this list and if they are not there then most likely that is why they balked about permits.
Unpermitted work, and unregistered contractors, can cause other issues as well. For example if the work was improperly performed and causes damage to the home your insurance might not pay for repairs. If you allow an unregistered contractor on your property and they are injured then you may well be responsible for that as well. Why would anyone want to be the retirement plan for a contractor that is not willing to register and carry all required insurances? If you call Dallas they will tell you what all insurances and requirements this electrician must follow to be registered.
This is what was on the $2K quote originally sent before the permitting question arose:
The last I checked the simple replacement of an electrical panel was running around $2K. That was to pull an old panel out, put a new one in the same place, then reconnect wiring. I am not saying that $2K is not a believable quote but for the amount of work you are describing I would most certainly have to question it. Is the new panel really new or reconditioned equipment? When they replace that panel they will be required to follow the 2011 National Electric Code (mandated by Dallas) which means they would have to bring the panel up to new standards which is adding Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) breakers which are easily 2X - 3X the cost of a simple breaker. Was that quoted? There are other potential actions they might have to do as mandated by the City as well. I would call the City and have a talk with them and see what else might be required to bring the system to current building code standards and see if this electrician has quoted those as well?
Upgrade electrical service to 120/240 volts, 200 amps, single-phase.
Remove existing circuit breaker panel in utility closet.
Install new circuit breaker panel outside.
Above you did make a very astute observation about the placement of a safety pad under the exterior breaker panel! Yes I always advise clients to have this done as electricity is nothing to take chances with. You also mentioned having a lock placed on the panel which can be a significant safety hazard without making other provisions. For example if you have an interior main disconnect you can quickly respond to an electrical emergency by shutting down all power. If the exterior box is locked and you have no rapidly accessible disconnect how can you shut down power and potentially save a life if an electrical shock situation was occurring?
Replace existing meter base and conduit riser with new 200 amp equipment.
Bring grounding of the new service up to current Code.
Install steel support cable on conduit riser above roof line to prevent further damage to conduit due to tension on overhead powerline.
How high is the Service Drop cabling from the pole as it crosses your property to reach the house? There are also requirements for minimum heights and if your cabling is to low it might require a taller mast which might add addition costs.
Relocate existing dryer outlet to center behind dryer. If necessary, bring grounding of the dryer circuit up to current Code. (Current Code requires a four-wire circuit with separate neutral and ground wires for all dryers.)
We asked about installing a new junction box in the attic for wiring splices so that the current interior panel box can be removed instead of left where it is and that increased the quote by $1,000.
Bottom line:
Does replacing the mast and outside work mandate a panel replacement?
Not necessarily, see above.
Do we definitely need to increase to 200 amps if we know we will be doing some updating down the road?
Not necessarily. Any good electrician can size your current system based on your needs and advise if anything you plan in the future would require upgrading to more than a 100 Amp service.
Are we correct in wanting this permitted & if so how approx much more should this add to the cost?
Yes you are correct and permits are cheap. If you go to the City of Dallas Building Inspections page they list permits and costs there. However keep in mind that permitting it might again require additional actions/upgrades which would add to the cost. Speak to Dallas and they can tell you what you will need to do and upgrade. Then you can get a real quote from a properly registered electrician.
Is the quote for the work above about right? Is additional $1K to move junction box to attic in line?
Speak with Dallas first about what you are required to do and then obtain proper quotes based on that. Also see the notes above.
If we wanted to move the panel to the garage, does it become cost prohibitive and if we have to move outside, how do we best secure it?
See above.
Here's the rub: we have used this (master) electrician in the past for minor work and have been very pleased. He also happened to start doing some minor work for us last week and was supposed to come back this afternoon but sent a text this morning that he is not sure he can make it today as van is running badly.
Any tradesperson that tries to circumvent safe procedures and permits should be suspect!
Seems like I pissed him off by telling him we want the panel & associated work permitted and I am not sure why but before we move on and try to find someone else to get a quote from and possibly finish the work he started (which I am not too happy about) I wanted to get some feedback about this.
If you are not happy and do not feel safe with the work then it is time to cut your losses and move to a real electrician! If this person is performing work in Dallas and is not properly registered with Dallas then you should report them as well!
Thanks in advance.
I have added comments, suggestions, questions, etc., above in blue italic. The electrical system in a home is not something to be taken lightly and short-cutted on!
Lots to consider and good to know we were/are on right track in our thinking.
That link to registered contractors is great to have as a starting point for vendors.
The electrician we are working with is registered on the site so not sure why we are having the issues we are having and we will get some other quotes.
Update: finally connected with our electrician and talked this through. He has no issue getting a permit & insuring whatever needs to be coordinated with Oncor is done. He said he had already researched being able to upgrade to 200 and that if we buy a stackable w/d instead of a side-by-side (nothing there now but we had told him side-by-side so that's why he said we needed to move panel) there will be the minimum 3' clearance needed to access the panel so it will not have to moved outside. We will also not need to move the junction box. He will be installing a new Square-D box. I appreciate the guidance and information presented above to help me be a better consumer and to be able to ask all the right the questions. Thanks.
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