which DFW community college = best computer/tech classes ? (Howe: lawyers, find a job)

[LarryTX]

Hello

I am under the impression that Collin County Community College has the most extensive computer science/tech related class offerings.

Is this correct ?

Thank you

[BongoBungo]

Originally Posted by LarryTX

Hello

I am under the impression that Collin County Community College has the most extensive computer science/tech related class offerings.

Is this correct ?

Thank you

I believe so, but if you are taking classes merely to learn, and not for a degree, especially if they are related to server administration, computer programming, or even networking, you might find the classes at online "schools" like Udacity, Team Treehouse, EDX, Freecodecamp, etc will be far better learning resources.

[stephenm85]

The best way to start is to locate a users group and ask questions. There are many online forms that you can consult also. As BongoBungo said online classes are really the way to go. When trying for a degree or something a brick and motor is almost always the sure fire way. Not always no a days but really important. Also because tech changes so often it's best to think first what you want to learn. I learned Linux systems and ditched M$ years ago and I'm OK with that. When I can find a job in Texas it might now first be a Linux job but it's a start to learning. Also think about volunteer work or just helping family and friends. Unfortunately in my family my dad has been doing computer work for 27 years so more people go to him.

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by LarryTX

Hello

I am under the impression that Collin County Community College has the most extensive computer science/tech related class offerings.

Is this correct ?

Thank you

Are you sure you need a classroom setting to learn this kind of stuff? Reason I ask is if you plan to work in this field (I've been in this field 20 years), you have to continuously learn new stuff and you won't always have the desire or time to go back to the classroom to learn it. Some of this stuff can't be learned in a classroom. You need to be able to teach it to yourself and know where to go to get help if you need it.

What are you trying to learn?

I taught myself VB, .NET, SQL Server administration, T-SQL, various other flavors of SQL....currently teaching myself Python. The first thing I taught myself was HTML.

Good luck!

[BongoBungo]

Originally Posted by BigDGeek

Are you sure you need a classroom setting to learn this kind of stuff? Reason I ask is if you plan to work in this field (I've been in this field 20 years), you have to continuously learn new stuff and you won't always have the desire or time to go back to the classroom to learn it. Some of this stuff can't be learned in a classroom. You need to be able to teach it to yourself and know where to go to get help if you need it.

What are you trying to learn?

I taught myself VB, .NET, SQL Server administration, T-SQL, various other flavors of SQL....currently teaching myself Python. The first thing I taught myself was HTML.

Good luck!

This is spot on. School classrooms are actually one of the worst places to learn anything related to IT or programming. The material is typically very outdated, and those teaching the classes are usually teachers because they couldn't make it in the industry or are retired (in either case, that makes them not ideal teachers). You can't be successful in IT if you are unable to learn on your own.

[LarryTX]

Originally Posted by BongoBungo

This is spot on. School classrooms are actually one of the worst places to learn anything related to IT or programming. The material is typically very outdated, and those teaching the classes are usually teachers because they couldn't make it in the industry or are retired (in either case, that makes them not ideal teachers). You can't be successful in IT if you are unable to learn on your own.

Thank you. So I assume "I taught myself" is fine at an interview, when they observe XXX claim on my resume ?

[BongoBungo]

Originally Posted by LarryTX

Thank you. So I assume "I taught myself" is fine at an interview, when they observe XXX claim on my resume ?

Two things.

Assuming you're in IT, most of the time, yes actually. One's portfolio, work experience, and Github profile are more than enough. I've worked extensively in the hiring and interview process at several companies, and honestly degrees and certifications were not at the top of the list of things we considered. Self taught programmers are often more ambitious, hard working, and self sufficient. The value of a college degree is more in the sort of meta skills one obtains, which, while certainly valuable, are probably less valuable than an additional four years of work experience. Many larger companies may want to see a degree for their candidates, but at the end of the day if you're smart and ambitious you'll do fine in IT whether you have a formal degree or not. A master's degree or PHD, on the other hand, will certainly make a big difference and open all kinds of doors. But a Bachelor's degree or an Associate's degree not so much, except if you have no experience and need to get that first job. This all applies merely to the world of programming/software engineering, or at least the little corner of it I'm familiar with. That said, I've also known a few people who took a few classes at a community college, and despite not even getting a degree or past work experience were able to get a job paying about $45k a year doing SQL programming, so some employers do obviously see value in college classes vs self taught.

Secondly, even after acquiring a degree, it's still necessary to continue to learn. Many people try to do this by taking continuing education classes at community colleges, but these are generally inferior to resources found online.

[LarryTX]

Thank you

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by BongoBungo

Two things.

Assuming you're in IT, most of the time, yes actually. One's portfolio, work experience, and Github profile are more than enough. I've worked extensively in the hiring and interview process at several companies, and honestly degrees and certifications were not at the top of the list of things we considered. Self taught programmers are often more ambitious, hard working, and self sufficient. The value of a college degree is more in the sort of meta skills one obtains, which, while certainly valuable, are probably less valuable than an additional four years of work experience. Many larger companies may want to see a degree for their candidates, but at the end of the day if you're smart and ambitious you'll do fine in IT whether you have a formal degree or not. A master's degree or PHD, on the other hand, will certainly make a big difference and open all kinds of doors. But a Bachelor's degree or an Associate's degree not so much, except if you have no experience and need to get that first job. This all applies merely to the world of programming/software engineering, or at least the little corner of it I'm familiar with. That said, I've also known a few people who took a few classes at a community college, and despite not even getting a degree or past work experience were able to get a job paying about $45k a year doing SQL programming, so some employers do obviously see value in college classes vs self taught.

Secondly, even after acquiring a degree, it's still necessary to continue to learn. Many people try to do this by taking continuing education classes at community colleges, but these are generally inferior to resources found online.

Yea and becoming a programmer without a degree subjugates one to a lifetime of lower pay, a great majority of high paying programming and up-chain jobs will remain literally closed off etc.

Frankly, this right up there with your contention the other day that IT salaries have been frozen at 1997 levels.

[BongoBungo]

Originally Posted by EDS_

Yea and becoming a programmer without a degree subjugates one to a lifetime of lower pay, a great majority of high paying programming and up-chain jobs will remain literally closed off etc.

Frankly, this right up there with your contention the other day that IT salaries have been frozen at 1997 levels.

The lack of a degree does not necessarily subjugate a programmer to a lifetime of lower pay, at least at most companies. If you're at a company that refuses to pay you what your experience should garner simply because you don't have a degree, then move to a different company. However, it can prevent one from reaching more managerial roles which can pay more than software engineer and developer positions. For many people who are passionate about software development, they are not interested in these management positions in the first place as it becomes more politics and less coding. The highest paid software developers are often independent contractors, and a degree is certainly not a requirement in that case. I work with several independent contractors that typically make more than $200k/yr, which is a pay level almost unheard of for software engineers unless they are in top positions at companies like Google and Microsoft.

I may have been slightly mistaken in some of my claims in the other topic, but software engineer salaries have, however, stagnated for many years, and finally went up again in the 2010s, but the growth in salaries has been uneven, with the top 10% of software developers (typically those graduating with high GPAs from good universities and perhaps holding advanced degrees) seeing most of the growth in salaries. Globalization and H-1B Visas have severely depressed wage growth in IT in many cases.

This Stack Overflow survey provides a very comprehensive look at many factors impacting salary of developers. The median salary for a self-taught developer in the US with no formal degree is $103,801, whereas having a B.A. CS degree only raises it to $106,678 and B.S. CS degree $109,609. Given the small increase, it's up for debate whether it's better to have an additional four years of income and work experience, or to spend 4-5 years earning a Bachelor's Degree. It's also extremely telling that Boot-Camp programs provide a higher mean salary than a Bachelor's Degree. For an 18 year old graduating high school and who still has no experience with software development, I'd certainly recommend they go to college - but for someone who has been programming since they were 14 and already working in the industry by the time they graduate high school, college may or may not be the ideal route depending on many factors. For someone who is 25+ and has a family to support and does not have a Computer Science or equivalent degree, going the self taught route is probably better. You'd be surprised how many developers I work with who are former plumbers, accountants, retail workers, pizza delivery people, even a couple burnt out lawyers and nurses. As I mentioned earlier, Master's and PHD degrees make much more of a difference as they are a requirement for the top developer positions at larger companies. If you want to be an industry leader and someone who is changing the world, you need a Master's degree and/or PHD. If you want to just have a comfortable job with the ability to eventually make six figure income and love programming, going self taught is usually OK. There isn't really a wrong path.

Stack Overflow Developer Survey 2016 Results

A few articles that give some more insight to the data from that Stack Overflow developer survey. Notice the points about college degrees, as they help to corroborate my point and prove I'm not crazy (many people outside of IT don't understand that you don't need a formal college degree to be successful)
https://www.thesoftwareguild.com/blo...eloper-survey/
https://stackoverflow.blog/2016/03/s...urvey-results/
https://techbeacon.com/highlights-st...veloper-survey
https://medium.freecodecamp.com/2-ou...c21#.ei46mok7k