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Old 06-23-2008, 01:17 PM
 
430 posts, read 1,354,336 times
Reputation: 171

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shutchins View Post
The same goes for in-hospital births. In that group are women who WILL have complications, therefore, the in-hospital group will have a higher rate of issues than all women.

Not totally true, I had 2 amazing hospital births followed by a fabulous birthing center birth. Many parents just don't know the options that are out there, thus choose hospitals b/c that is what is socially accepted. The 'cascade of interventions' was an articled published late 80's early 90's in medical journals. It specifically address the tendency of hospitals to precipitate many of the problems that end in c-section and interventions.
I stand by the fact that women with proven birth canals or normal pregnancies are a far cry from high risk moms and that is the reason for most of the discrepancy in statistics.

I agree with you that docs and nurses can make mistakes, but you have to accept that most complications are not their fault.

You cannot base a system of care or a course of care on exceptions in care.
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:26 PM
 
3,414 posts, read 7,120,981 times
Reputation: 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by austinnetx View Post
I love the scene in the book Gone with the Wind where Scarlett is eating full course meal right after her daughter is born. It was meant as a moment of levity.

Most of my sister in laws were wiped out after a natural birth. I walked the maternity ward at Presby and most of the moms were asleep. But good for you.

I mean no disrespect to anyone - I do think the "natural Birth" crowd tinge their posts with a touch of fanaticism so I wanted to throw it back at them.
I think we're confusing terms. Your sister-in-laws were wiped out after having natural birth IN THE HOSPITAL. The opposite is true for mothers who have natural birth AT HOME. I assume the difference is whatever the hospital is doing or not doing. At home there is no interference in the natural process and in the hospital the interference never stops. People who go to the hospital end up thinking it's childbirth itself that is difficult and dangerous instead of the HOSPITAL process of, and interference with, childbirth. And how would you know any better? What would you have to compare it against? Everyone in the hospital that you come in contact with has a VESTED INTEREST in believing (and making sure you believe) that you NEED them to give birth. And how would you know any differently? That's why every other women leaves with an "I almost died" or "the baby could have died" story. It's good for repeat business and it makes sure you will always be a good, obedient and grateful little patient who will never question THE WAY WE DO IT. Indoctrinated for life.

Last edited by laysayfair; 06-23-2008 at 03:30 PM.. Reason: typo, add
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Old 06-23-2008, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Lewisville
212 posts, read 1,150,057 times
Reputation: 133
Sounds like someone has been watching The Business of Being Born.

Are there people out there that birth in hospitals that would be just as safe (possibly safer) birthing at home? Sure.
Are there people that actually do need to birth in hospitals in order to have the best chance that they and the baby will survive and thrive? Of course!

As long as mom and baby make it through the experience healthy and alive, what does it matter the route they took to get there? If you want to do the natural birth thing, more power to you. It doesn't make anyone else's birth choices any more ingnorant or any less valid than yours.
My child isn't any less loved because she was born via emergency c-section after a 17 hour induction than a child that was born at home with no intervention, and that doesn't make me a lazy or selfish parent either (which is a common implication by a lot of the pro-natural chid birth folks). Maybe it wasn't the ideal birth, but she's here, I'm here, and we're both happy and healthy 3.5 years later.
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Old 06-23-2008, 04:45 PM
 
10 posts, read 66,187 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by austinnetx View Post
I stand by the fact that women with proven birth canals or normal pregnancies are a far cry from high risk moms and that is the reason for most of the discrepancy in statistics.

I agree with you that docs and nurses can make mistakes, but you have to accept that most complications are not their fault.

You cannot base a system of care or a course of care on exceptions in care.
The incorrect assumption here is that families are making 'informed consent' decisions in their care. If a family is told that they are high risk or need an intervention in the process, do they take the time to ask for a second opnion or do research on their own? Not usually, the vast majority take what is said and spend more time pouring over nursery decor than they do empowering themselves with information about the stage of life that they are in and the info that they need to make quality decisions. A proven pelivs and a normal pregnancy doesn't garuntee a mom a birth that she wants if you see the following things used in her care: epidurals, anmiotomy, episiotomy, narcotic injections, pitocin, prostaglandin gels, iv, etc. Mistakes are not the reason for the number of c-sections and complications these days. The surge of these interventions and medical management of labor undoes the process that the body would naturally follow. For example, if we know the avg. 1st time labor lasts 15-17 hours, and a hospital expects mom to dilate 1-1.5 cm/hr, how does the math work? These aren't contrived numbers, this is called 'active management of labor'. Moms with interventions do come out worn out b/c things that intervene with the natural process cause the body to work harder to get the same amount of work done. How does the US have subpar mortality rates if it is only mistakes that are the problem?

I would say that with the above statements that it sounds like you are accepting the bill of goods that has been sold to the American public! You don't go to an oncologist for normal tissue, you don't go to a cardiologist to have them treat a healty heart. Why do we find it odd that when an OB is trained in the ways to manage problems in pregnancy/labor/birth, that there are more interventions done than even if it is a hospital birth with a midwife, a birth center, or a home birth? That being said, there are wonderful OBs that know how to let a body do what it is supposed to do, but it is few and far between that want to get out of the way and let the body do what it is designed to do.

That is my long winded way of saying that I don't have to accept fiction as fact, iatrogenic illness could be the easiest way to explain the reality of American Obstetrics. As mothers and fathers we should never take the statements of others as truth just because it makes us feel better. If you actually have the numbers that show that the issues are real complications not the cascade of interventions, I'd love to see them, but I've yet to see such a thing!
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Old 06-23-2008, 04:57 PM
 
10 posts, read 66,187 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlosmTX View Post
Sounds like someone has been watching The Business of Being Born.

Are there people out there that birth in hospitals that would be just as safe (possibly safer) birthing at home? Sure.
Are there people that actually do need to birth in hospitals in order to have the best chance that they and the baby will survive and thrive? Of course!

As long as mom and baby make it through the experience healthy and alive, what does it matter the route they took to get there? If you want to do the natural birth thing, more power to you. It doesn't make anyone else's birth choices any more ingnorant or any less valid than yours.
My child isn't any less loved because she was born via emergency c-section after a 17 hour induction than a child that was born at home with no intervention, and that doesn't make me a lazy or selfish parent either (which is a common implication by a lot of the pro-natural chid birth folks). Maybe it wasn't the ideal birth, but she's here, I'm here, and we're both happy and healthy 3.5 years later.
Absoluty right! I do have students that end up in your situation, but how much easier if you don't have to be in the c-section situation, right?

I've seen part of BoBB. More than an endorsement of the movie or spouting their message, I am just putting into words what I teach parents in the childbirth classes that I teach more than anything else. I truly want parents to know their choices, the reality of information, and fact vs fiction so they can make the best decisions possible when it comes to crunch times. Many times people are more amazed at what they don't know, and what they have just taken for granted as being the truth since that is what they have been exposed to. I don't think it makes people's birth choices 'more ignorant' as you called it, but it can make it fear based and poorly educated decision making process... would you buy a car without doing the research on it? So, why would you birth (whatever way you ultimatly choose) without doing research on it!
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:13 PM
 
3,414 posts, read 7,120,981 times
Reputation: 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlosmTX View Post
Sounds like someone has been watching The Business of Being Born.

Are there people out there that birth in hospitals that would be just as safe (possibly safer) birthing at home? Sure.
Are there people that actually do need to birth in hospitals in order to have the best chance that they and the baby will survive and thrive? Of course!

As long as mom and baby make it through the experience healthy and alive, what does it matter the route they took to get there? If you want to do the natural birth thing, more power to you. It doesn't make anyone else's birth choices any more ingnorant or any less valid than yours.
My child isn't any less loved because she was born via emergency c-section after a 17 hour induction than a child that was born at home with no intervention, and that doesn't make me a lazy or selfish parent either (which is a common implication by a lot of the pro-natural chid birth folks). Maybe it wasn't the ideal birth, but she's here, I'm here, and we're both happy and healthy 3.5 years later.
If you're talking about me I have never seen the documentary. I had my son at home on the Upper West side of Manhattan twenty years ago. Rikki Lake has only just arrived to the table. I did an episode of "Geraldo" on this subject while Rikki Lake was still wearing knee socks.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Lewisville
212 posts, read 1,150,057 times
Reputation: 133
So I guess you want a cookie for the accomplishment? Congrats- you managed to do what nearly every other woman has done since the begining of our species.
You go and chew your herbs. I'll continue to trust trained medical professionals with my care, and just because I choose to do so does not mean I'm ignorant, uninformed, don't seek second opinions when warranted, and/or have been brainwashed by "the system". I think more women than you give credit for would agree with me.
There's a difference between educating people and shoving your personal agenda down people's throats. You can't force people to become educated/informed and come to the same conclusions you did.

Last edited by BlosmTX; 06-23-2008 at 09:09 PM..
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Old 06-23-2008, 09:26 PM
 
3,414 posts, read 7,120,981 times
Reputation: 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlosmTX View Post
So I guess you want a cookie for the accomplishment? Congrats- you managed to do what nearly every other woman has done since the begining of our species.
You go and chew your herbs. I'll continue to trust trained medical professionals with my care, and just because I choose to do so does not mean I'm ignorant, uninformed, don't seek second opinions when warranted, and/or have been brainwashed by "the system". I think more women than you give credit for would agree with me.
There's a difference between educating people and shoving your personal agenda down people's throats. You can't force people to become educated/informed and come to the same conclusions you did.
Who are you replying to? Did you read the whole thread? No, obviously not...
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Old 06-23-2008, 09:43 PM
 
10 posts, read 66,187 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlosmTX View Post
So I guess you want a cookie for the accomplishment? Congrats- you managed to do what nearly every other woman has done since the begining of our species.
You go and chew your herbs. I'll continue to trust trained medical professionals with my care, and just because I choose to do so does not mean I'm ignorant, uninformed, don't seek second opinions when warranted, and/or have been brainwashed by "the system". I think more women than you give credit for would agree with me.
There's a difference between educating people and shoving your personal agenda down people's throats. You can't force people to become educated/informed and come to the same conclusions you did.

Wow! I thought that this thread was a response to a question about natural births and the best hospitals to achieve that goal. To be tacky about your choice and insult those that pursue more 'natural' routes of doing things (i.e. your statement about having been done since the beginning of our species and herb chewers) , except there are no insults being hurled from others. You are right, being educated means that you don't just take what you are told, but you read, research, and develop insights based on mulitple info sources. Noone implied that you were ignorant or uninformed or brainwashed, it was simply put that the majority of women don't know that pitocin, early epidurals, and amniotomy increases your chances of c-section. If your goal happens to be a natural birth, then you would want to avoid these things and avoid selecting medical professionals (wheter doc or midwife) that routinely use these interventions. Research not opnion, it is factual based on actual medical research. FWIW, midwives are also trained medical professionals!
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Old 06-23-2008, 09:45 PM
 
3,414 posts, read 7,120,981 times
Reputation: 1467
Quote:
Originally Posted by shutchins View Post
Wow! I thought that this thread was a response to a question about natural births and the best hospitals to achieve that goal. To be tacky about your choice and insult those that pursue more 'natural' routes of doing things (i.e. your statement about having been done since the beginning of our species and herb chewers) , except there are no insults being hurled from others. You are right, being educated means that you don't just take what you are told, but you read, research, and develop insights based on mulitple info sources. Noone implied that you were ignorant or uninformed or brainwashed, it was simply put that the majority of women don't know that pitocin, early epidurals, and amniotomy increases your chances of c-section. If your goal happens to be a natural birth, then you would want to avoid these things and avoid selecting medical professionals (wheter doc or midwife) that routinely use these interventions. Research not opnion, it is factual based on actual medical research. FWIW, midwives are also trained medical professionals!
Nicely said. They won't let me give you anymore rep...
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