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I'm not equipped to participate in the detailed analyses that I see on CD comparing educational outcomes between schools and school districts, but I'd be interested to read the thoughts of those of you who are about this essay linked to on D Magazine's blog today.
I'm not equipped to participate in the detailed analyses that I see on CD comparing educational outcomes between schools and school districts, but I'd be interested to read the thoughts of those of you who are about this essay linked to on D Magazine's blog today.
It's essentially an apples to apples comparison between HPISD and DISD. Any holes to poke? Does it make sense? On the surface it does to me.
I think anyone who actually knows FACTS (as opposed to just spouting off that it's a failing cesspool) about DISD realizes that:
1) the district faces an uphill battle daily due to its demographics that HP and other affluent districts don't have to spend any/much energy fighting. I can't quote the exact % of DISD students that don't have consistent access to food (much less nutritious food) or come from first generation homes that don't speak English at home or live in neighborhoods with significant safety distractions (gangs, crime, drugs).....but the %'s are HIGH. When looking at a standardized test like the SAT, Asians score the highest nationally with white students about 100 points lower (on 2400 scale) and then there is a HUGE gap between white SAT scores and those of black and Hispanic students. Nationally, there is a 400 point gap between Asians (highest scoring) and blacks (lowest) so a district where 94% of students are from the two lowest scoring demographics, it's unrealistic to expect results that are much higher than they are today. Honestly, the only way the district's results are going to increase is to enroll more white and Asian students.
2) there are some fantastic public schools in DISD- and I'm not just talking about the high achieving neighborhood schools that tend to be in the neighborhoods that are more affluent/ more educated parents / safer than the average DISD neighborhood school zone. It makes perfect sense that the schools where the student body more closely resembles the HPISD student body would have similar academic results. Then there are the magnet schools and some of the application only academies that are truly fabulous, several of which outperform HP and are ranked even higher on a national level that have the luxury of drawing from the top 3%ish of the entire DISD. I consider them fantastic not just for their results but more for their classroom content and programming. What our friends' kid is doing as a freshman at TAG magnet rivals any of the top private schools in town.
HP is successful for two reasons: one, its residents won the genetic lottery. But two, the district promotes a culture of success and excellence. The pressure to be the best - whether it's in athletics or the arts or the classroom - has more in common with private school culture than most public schools. You're constantly reminded of the many, many successful HP alumni who walked the same halls, whether they're success is in business or law or politics or being the top paid athlete in the NFL or MLB or Tony or Emmy award winners or whatever. Yes, these kids would do well and make any school look good, but there is an element of "tradition" at HP that isn't at every school with similar demographics.
FWIW, the author of this article graduated from HP schools.
I'm not equipped to participate in the detailed analyses that I see on CD comparing educational outcomes between schools and school districts, but I'd be interested to read the thoughts of those of you who are about this essay linked to on D Magazine's blog today.
It's essentially an apples to apples comparison between HPISD and DISD. Any holes to poke? Does it make sense? On the surface it does to me.
It's an impossible comparison to make. How would HPISD do with economically disadvantaged kids? Who knows? They've never had to face that issue.
It makes perfect sense to me that kids who live in Lakewood or Stonewall (as examples) do as well as HP kids in most respects. In plenty of cases, their parents make as much or more than parents who live in HPISD even though they've chosen to live elsewhere (especially Lakewood). But their educational backgrounds and expectations are probably very similar to kids who live in HPISD.
I'm not equipped to participate in the detailed analyses that I see on CD comparing educational outcomes between schools and school districts, but I'd be interested to read the thoughts of those of you who are about this essay linked to on D Magazine's blog today.
It's essentially an apples to apples comparison between HPISD and DISD. Any holes to poke? Does it make sense? On the surface it does to me.
It seems like the argument is that if you compare "like against like" DISD performs at the same or a higher level than nearby districts with more acclaim.
I think it's a valid argument. A middle to upper-middle class black or Latino kid in Plano won't necessarily perform better than her counterpart in Dallas. I think people avoid DISD because they want their children to be surrounded by 'high achievers'....to not get lost in the shuffle. Highly motivated elite students will thrive anywhere but average-to-above average students may need to be in an environment that pushes them more if they aren't natural Type-A personalities.
I'd also add that DISD is very have vs. have-not in many areas. The more affluent zip-codes in the DISD attendance zone may be a bit too expensive for many potential home buyers. More affordable areas have the perception of being higher crime locations. The suburban districts provide more balance between affordability and school quality. These are theories of mine and I have absolutely zero evidence to back it up!
I attended both RISD and DISD schools. My perception was that there was a much wider variance between the Top and the Bottom in DISD, while the gap was a bit narrower in RISD.
It's an impossible comparison to make. How would HPISD do with economically disadvantaged kids? Who knows? They've never had to face that issue.
It makes perfect sense to me that kids who live in Lakewood or Stonewall (as examples) do as well as HP kids in most respects. In plenty of cases, their parents make as much or more than parents who live in HPISD even though they've chosen to live elsewhere (especially Lakewood). But their educational backgrounds and expectations are probably very similar to kids who live in HPISD.
Very true and this is part of what the analysis misses.
I think any reasonable person can agree that the primary driver of school outcomes is student demographics. The article correctly points that out, but they don't tie in the connection with peer groups. While it's true that the white affluent students in DISD perform similar to white affluent students in other districts, it is also true that the white affluent students in DISD cluster in a small group of schools (Lakewood, Stonewall, magnets). Would those students perform as well in an elementary school with 90% Low SES?
It is lazy thinking to deride DISD in the way that suburban posters on here do, but it is equally lazy thinking to equate results obtained at DISD schools full of affluent students and apply those outcomes to evaluate DISD as a whole.
DISD has some great schools, despite what many suburban residents would tell you, but it also has many troubled areas.
Its a useless argument to make. The student body itself has the biggest influence on how well a school district performs. Take the HPISD and DISD kids, leave the teachers intact and switch them to each other’s campuses and i think the results will be similar.
The kids that were doing well in DISD will be the same ones doing well in the HPISD campuses and the HPISD students’ performance wont change much once they are used to their ‘grungier’ surroundings.
All these arguments comparing school districts strike me as disingenuous. What they are really comparing is the kids and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to decipher the fact that better off kids in any zip code will do better in whatever school district they attend while poorer kids in any zip code will struggle for any number of reasons. Yes there are outliers, but that doesn't change the rule.
DISD for all its problems has some of the best public schools in the country. But when you look at those schools’ students one may find the majority will have more in common with the average suburban or HP kid than they would with the average DISD student.
So.. is HPISD better than DISD? Or vice versa? My answer is it doesn't matter.
Well, enviornment matters, nurturers matter, peers matter, PTA matters. Whatever is the reason for HPISD doing better, it doesn’t change the fact that compared to Dallas ISD, it’s a more conducive enviornment for a child to learn and prosper.
What we compare here are available options for new buyers, where their budget can buy best possible public education. That doesn’t address what needs to be done to bring all public schools to a level where it ends the need to worry about schools when buying a home. If we fixed education, there won’t be any need for school ratings or college rankings.
I think anyone who actually knows FACTS (as opposed to just spouting off that it's a failing cesspool) about DISD realizes that:
1) the district faces an uphill battle daily due to its demographics that HP and other affluent districts don't have to spend any/much energy fighting. I can't quote the exact % of DISD students that don't have consistent access to food (much less nutritious food) or come from first generation homes that don't speak English at home or live in neighborhoods with significant safety distractions (gangs, crime, drugs).....but the %'s are HIGH. When looking at a standardized test like the SAT, Asians score the highest nationally with white students about 100 points lower (on 2400 scale) and then there is a HUGE gap between white SAT scores and those of black and Hispanic students. Nationally, there is a 400 point gap between Asians (highest scoring) and blacks (lowest) so a district where 94% of students are from the two lowest scoring demographics, it's unrealistic to expect results that are much higher than they are today. Honestly, the only way the district's results are going to increase is to enroll more white and Asian students.
I was right there with you until the bolded part. Your answer, while true in today's landscape, only speaks to the underlying and unaddressed issues of inequality, systemic racism, and lack of opportunity/quality early education/stable homes & jobs/etc that afflict the poor, many of whom are POC. The answer isn't to stuff the schools with white & Asian kids.
Quote:
HP is successful for two reasons: one, its residents won the genetic lottery. But two, the district promotes a culture of success and excellence. The pressure to be the best - whether it's in athletics or the arts or the classroom - has more in common with private school culture than most public schools. You're constantly reminded of the many, many successful HP alumni who walked the same halls, whether they're success is in business or law or politics or being the top paid athlete in the NFL or MLB or Tony or Emmy award winners or whatever. Yes, these kids would do well and make any school look good, but there is an element of "tradition" at HP that isn't at every school with similar demographics.
FWIW, the author of this article graduated from HP schools.
They did no such thing. They won the birth lottery. To imply that wealth & success are genetic is distasteful to me. I like you and your analyses usually, so I'm not going to try to read more into that and I don't believe you meant it like that, but...come on. Genetic lottery?
Well, enviornment matters, nurturers matter, peers matter, PTA matters. Whatever is the reason for HPISD doing better, it doesn’t change the fact that compared to Dallas ISD, it’s a more conducive enviornment for a child to learn and prosper.
What we compare here are available options for new buyers, where their budget can buy best possible public education. That doesn’t address what needs to be done to bring all public schools to a level where it ends the need to worry about schools when buying a home. If we fixed education, there won’t be any need for school ratings or college rankings.
The education is rarely the problem. We can't ask schools and teachers to try to fix broader social issues. It's not the teachers that are failing the kids for the most part (always exceptions and room to improve of course), it's the parents.
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