AP courses in high school (Austin, Post: best schools, colleges, income)

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by stan4

Yah. UT gave me 54 hours of credit from AP, SAT2, etc. Plus free tuition bc of Natl Merit Finalist/Scholar. And I was not in the top 10% at Plano Sr (no West back then).

Kids did take AP and other advanced classes early if they were geniuses (like 2 close friends of mine who had to spend a bit of their senior year at CCCC).

The gaming and other nonsense that goes on now is reason #1 both my kids at Greenhill instead of Plano. It's beyond silly at this point.

I got tons of hours too. It was pretty awesome. I didn't go to Plano schools and didn't take the classes for a couple of the AP tests I took. For example, I took the German AP exam and never studied German formally but made a 5 because I was raised speaking German (and a few other languages). Easiest 5 I got on the AP tests I took! I didn't even claim credit for German at UT because I didn't need it but looking back, I kind of wish I had.

Originally Posted by Waterdragon8212

I'm probably not the best one to answer this question (please chime in if you have more experience than me!), but I'm happy to offer the little I know.

While most of the elite privates have a good number of AP classes, the approach to them appears to be quite different than public schools. Some schools have outright policies - Hockaday doesn't offer Freshman AP classes for instance - while others essentially structure prerequisite requirements in such a way that it is quite difficult to take APs before junior year (i.e. requiring biology, chemistry, and physics before you can take an AP science.) Greenhill has an explicit policy of 3 AP classes per year (you can petition for an additional AP course, but kids rarely do) and Hockaday has a similar policy (though it may be less explicit and more implied.) Hockaday doesn't give any extra weighted credit for AP or honors courses, although St. Mark's does. St. Mark's faculty nominates kids for honors/AP and Greenhill requires the permission of the department to enroll.

That's how it should be, though. You should have to study the basics (and do well) before plunging into AP science and math courses. When I was a teenager, AP meant something. The classes were challenging and we were pushed pretty hard. Now as I mentioned above, I got a 5 on the German AP without ever taking German, but I was lucky in that I'm literate in German. Plus you can't really compare a language AP with a math or science AP. (I found the language APs pretty easy, but I spoke those languages fluently and was 100% literate in them.)

[jiping]

Originally Posted by numbersguy100

Yes and no. Schools where 20% or more of students regularly earn NMSF status do not worry about the ability of their students to study for and score well on an AP test. The tests really aren't so hard for kids who are very smart, hard working, and good test takers.

All Private/Magnet Schools around Dallas which have at least 2 NMSF2018.

School____________11th_17&18__%_____2018__%____201 7__%
St._Marks__________92___35___19.0%___13___14.1%__2 2__23.9%
Cistercian Prep______43___13___15.1%___5____11.6%__8___18.6%
Hockaday School____121__31___12.8%___16___13.2%__15__12.4%
Talented & Gifted____61___13___10.7%___5____8.2%___8___13.1%
Greenhill School_____115__18___7.8%____9____7.8%___9___7.8%
Sci & Engineering____92___11___6.0%____6____6.5%___5___5 .4%

Cambridge School___25____3____6.0%____3___12.0%___0___0.0%
Jesuit College Prep__271___12___2.2%____3____1.1%____9__3.3%
Ursuline Academy___194___7____1.8%____2____1.0%___5___2.6%
North Hills Prep_____123___4____1.6%____2____1.6%___2___1.6%
Episcopal School____100___3____1.5%____2____2.0%___1___1.0%
Pope John Paul II___192___5____1.3%____3____1.6%____2___1.0%

[numbersguy100]

Originally Posted by UnfairPark

AP tests arent too hard for good public students either but scoring all 5s on 10+ courses is equally difficult for most private and public students. By the way which school has 20% NMS rate? SM?

I was generalizing - I think only SM is consistently that high. Though if you include commended students on NM then the top private schools are often crazy high %.

But your point is incorrect that scoring all 5s on 10+ classes is equally difficult for most public or private school students. It is significantly more difficult for most public school students relative to the elite private schools under discussion (if you are talking EVERY private school then maybe there's an argument, but then that's not what we are discussing). Your original contention was that top private schools limit AP classes for their students due to fear of student outcomes on said tests. That is simply an incorrect statement.

[serger]

Originally Posted by Waterdragon8212

I'm probably not the best one to answer this question (please chime in if you have more experience than me!), but I'm happy to offer the little I know.

While most of the elite privates have a good number of AP classes, the approach to them appears to be quite different than public schools. Some schools have outright policies - Hockaday doesn't offer Freshman AP classes for instance - while others essentially structure prerequisite requirements in such a way that it is quite difficult to take APs before junior year (i.e. requiring biology, chemistry, and physics before you can take an AP science.) Greenhill has an explicit policy of 3 AP classes per year (you can petition for an additional AP course, but kids rarely do) and Hockaday has a similar policy (though it may be less explicit and more implied.) Hockaday doesn't give any extra weighted credit for AP or honors courses, although St. Mark's does. St. Mark's faculty nominates kids for honors/AP and Greenhill requires the permission of the department to enroll.

All in all, it seems like different educational opportunities are emphasized at the privates. Greenhill, for instance, doesn't have AP English. However, they have a TON of unique writing/literature/social policy "electives" for English classes in 11th and 12th grade. Presumably, they believe these unique opportunities are more valuable than a generic AP English class.

Since privates notoriously dislike "teaching to a test", it's not surprising that AP classes are less emphasized in their curriculum. Though the number of AP classes they have may be similar to many public schools, if you look closely, you'll see the impossibility of taking all of them. For example, AP Latin, AP Chinese language and culture, AP Spanish, and AP French may be offered at one school, but what kid gets to the point where they can take 4 different language APs? Or a school might offer AP Bio, AP Chem, AP Physics 1, AP Physics 2, and AP Physics C, but if prerequisites mandate Biology, Chemistry, and Physics before you take any of these APs, it is nearly impossibly to take more than a couple in your high school career. Ironically, the kids I've seen graduate from private school with the most AP credits tend to be late transfers (10th or 11th) from public schools.

And that's how it should be. No GPA games this way.

[UnfairPark]

I found AP results for Greenhills and only 77% score 4% or higher so safe to say that probably 50% score 5 on one or more test and probably only half of those score 5s on 10 APs or more. I'm guessing SM's scores aren't too different.

By the way NMS and commended are too far apart, its not a one or two point difference. You only need 211/228 for commended while NMS requires 222/228 in Texas.

[UnfairPark]

Originally Posted by serger

And that's how it should be. No GPA games this way.

Almost all schools (public and private) have these requirements for taking AP courses at school. As far as taking AP test on your own without attending a course, no school can stop you from that. As far as gaming goes, students playing those games are more than qualified to enroll and score well in these courses. Its not like a B minus student can become valedictorian by taking all APs, that game is between top few percent.

[serger]

Originally Posted by UnfairPark

Almost all schools (public and private) have these requirements for taking AP courses at school. As far as taking AP test on your own without attending a course, no school can stop you from that. As far as gaming goes, students playing those games are more than qualified to enroll and score well in these courses. Its not like a B minus student can become valedictorian by taking all APs, that game is between top few percent.

If you take a higher level class in college or grad school, you don't get any special weighting due to the higher level.

The fact that there is a frequent discussion which AP classes are easier to take to pad the GPA is telling enough.

[UnfairPark]

Originally Posted by serger

If you take a higher level class in college or grad school, you don't get any special weighting due to the higher level.

The fact that there is a frequent discussion which AP classes are easier to take to pad the GPA is telling enough.

Unfortunately, you are right. GPA padding is a serious issue though highly selective schools does look at your course selection and unweighted GPA as well, not just weighted GPA.

[Waterdragon8212]

Originally Posted by UnfairPark

I found AP results for Greenhills and only 77% score 4% or higher so safe to say that probably 50% score 5 on one or more test and probably only half of those score 5s on 10 APs or more. I'm guessing SM's scores aren't too different.

At many of the privates, you can opt to take the AP test instead of the teacher's final to get course credit and your AP test score doesn't matter relative to your course grade (it's actually usually graded after you've finished the course anyway.) I've known countless private school kids who just took an AP test to complete a class and didn't care about the results because either: a) they already knew where they were going to college and the school didn't take AP credits, or b) they didn't care about the AP test results due to reasons similar to what EDS detailed. I'm not saying this is the best attitude, but when it doesn't count for anything (for you personally) and the choice is either take the AP test or take the teacher's (often harder and graded) final, it's kinda a no-brainer. Especially when your workload is already ridiculous. I've actually known a number of kids from the elite privates who didn't even study and pulled a 3 or higher on multiple AP exams. I think the meaning of the AP testing is typically different for private kids relative to public kids - unless they want to go to UT or a similar institution that rewards kids with credits. And, it might just be me, but it seems these types of offers are dwindling in this day and age.

On another note, my previous post makes it pretty clear that it is HIGHLY unlikely that any Greenhill kid would take 10 AP tests (i.e. 3 per year limit, most unable to start AP courses until 11th grade)...

[stan4]

Originally Posted by UnfairPark

I doubt UT looks at course rigor or standarized test scores for auto-admits but they do for non-auto admissions and selective programs like Turing Scholars and Business Honors Scholars. Surprisingly, their only "merit" scholarships (Forty Acres) aren't even based on academic merit but non academic talent and diversity. UT doesn't even offer National Merit Scholarships any more, just need based financial aid.

I think this is dumb because they are missing out on great kids that are going to other schools that are doling out free rides. These kids are likely as a whole a stronger bunch than any randomly chosen 10% or 7%.