Dallas officer involved in fatal shooting (Post, Ranger: apartment complex, insurance, homes)

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by EcoDeb

Exactly! Just shoot, anyone can do that. I'm sure there is training. Why not aim at a lower limb than at an area to kill? How did she feel her life was threatened?

Originally Posted by Soviet

She shot to kill because that’s her training. Cops are trained to immediately stop a threat by shooting at the center of mass, generally the chest. It’s disgusting. So THEIR lives are more important than the lives of others? Ha!

Well, no. Nobody should ever try to shoot for an extremity, nobody, not ever.

How many times have you heard of police firing ten or more rounds with only one or two striking the intended target--and they were aiming at the torso.

Moreover, even if they were to hit someone in the arm or leg, it's guaranteed that the bulled will go totally through the limb with almost no power lost...with the possibility of striking a bystander.

"Shooting to wound" is the same thing as "shooting to miss."

If the situation is such that someone can afford to miss, then he shouldn't be shooting in the first place.

And that's the question that needs to be asked more often...is this really a matter of someone's life in danger, or is it just a matter of the police officer not getting the immediate control that he wants?

Often, immediate control really isn't necessary.

Take that situation of an 87-year-old woman with dementia who was wandering around in a park with a knife, collecting flowers. In that case, she was only tased--but tasking is known to cause severe mental problems, which an 87-year-old woman who already has dementia certainly doesn't need.

How much danger was she, really? She's 87 years old...it's not going to be long before she sits down and goes to sleep. She's not going to outrun the cop. If she did suddenly become dangerous, he still had all the time in the world to tase her if and when that happened.

He could have simply waited her out while she wandered aimlessly...except that choosing the path of least injury to civilians is not what police are taught.

[Angie682]

Originally Posted by Jaggy001

They would not be so trigger happy if there were real consequences for improper use of their weapons and if they had proper training in non-lethal methods of conflict resolution.

This one is a case in point. She shot a man in his own apartment, she remained at liberty for three days, when she was arrested she was only in jail for an hour before posting bond and the official narrative is very much her defense.

There are going to be real life consequences in this case. I would convict her of manslaughter if I was on the jury. There is no excuse for what she did. Sorry.

The police were not summoned to the apartment (911 call/disturbance). She had absolutely no business being in his apartment. She shot and killed an innocent man who was doing nothing wrong due to her own gross negligence. She was trespassing in his apartment.

At issue is how she gained access to his apartment -- if he opened the door and failed to follow her "commands" that she had no business giving to him OR if she went into his apartment because the door was ajar. He had a red floor mat outside of his apartment. That's a pretty big hint you're not at the right apartment.

What kind of moron goes into the wrong apartment and shoots an innocent person? OMG if this is the quality of officer that DPD is hiring that is really frightening. I expect a cop to have much better judgment and observation skills. Cops are supposed to be observant and pay attention to details. How do you park on the wrong floor of your apartment building and then go to the wrong apartment and kill someone unless you are 1) intoxicated or high or 2) seriously mentally impaired.

Very sad case.

[PriscillaVanilla]

Originally Posted by Angie682

What kind of moron goes into the wrong apartment and shoots an innocent person? OMG if this is the quality of officer that DPD is hiring that is really frightening. I expect a cop to have much better judgment and observation skills. Cops are supposed to be observant and pay attention to details. How do you park on the wrong floor of your apartment building and then go to the wrong apartment and kill someone unless you are 1) intoxicated or high or 2) seriously mentally impaired.

1) There was an obvious large red mat in front of his door which anyone would have seen and said "that's not my apartment" unless by sheer coincidence she had the exact same red mat in front of her door. Only a blind person could not have noticed.

2) Residents of the apartment complex said there had been previous complaints about noise. Amber's apartment was directly on the floor below Botham's. Bingo. She was going up there to complain about noise, in her cop uniform, to make her point be taken even more seriously.

3) there are witnesses who heard a woman saying "let me in" right before the shooting. That means she knew someone was in the apartment. Which means she knew it wasn't her apartment.

The police waited 3 days to arrest her because they didn't want to. It was only after a public outcry for justice that they arrested her.

[Ralph_Kirk]

It's interesting that the police took Jean's phone as evidence and searched it, but they let the officer keep possession of her own phone at least until she was arrested.

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by yjc281

Update from news:


https://www.theroot.com/botham-jean-...-ma-1828998513


Some new info:


there were noise complaints from the immediate downstairs neighbors about whoever was upstairs, and that would have been Botham. In fact, there were noise complaints that very day about upstairs activity in Botham’s apartment. Botham received a phone call about noise coming from his apartment from the downstairs neighbor.”


also refresher from previous info:


two witnesses who claimed to have heard knocks on Botham’s door and a female voice shouting “Open up. Let me in,” before shots were fired are female roommates and neighbors of Botham.




If all of the above are proven to be true and supported by evidences. The picture of the scenario could be very different: (require evidences to support, of course)


Totally hypothetical:


Suspect came home exhausted from a long day of work and hoping to rest.
Lots of noise came from upstairs making it very difficult to rest, called to complain but problem persisted.
Went upstairs to confront the source of the noise.....then...


I thought about this theory before but ruled it out as it did not make sense that the suspect would try to use her key to enter. And unlikely the suspect would still in uniform when trying to rest.


Having stayed in various apartments for 10 years, if the theory is true I can totally understand people would be upset when neighbors keep making loud noises.


Guns are dangerous especially in the hands of an angry person. That is true even if this case proven to be a different scenario.


But, if the theory is proven to be true then the following article by a former police officer makes even more sense.


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-crime/569950/

Funny thing is, none of this is news to me; I've been hearing this since Sunday from multiple people.

[EcoDeb]

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

Well, no. Nobody should ever try to shoot for an extremity, nobody, not ever.

How many times have you heard of police firing ten or more rounds with only one or two striking the intended target--and they were aiming at the torso.

Moreover, even if they were to hit someone in the arm or leg, it's guaranteed that the bulled will go totally through the limb with almost no power lost...with the possibility of striking a bystander.

"Shooting to wound" is the same thing as "shooting to miss."

If the situation is such that someone can afford to miss, then he shouldn't be shooting in the first place.

And that's the question that needs to be asked more often...is this really a matter of someone's life in danger, or is it just a matter of the police officer not getting the immediate control that he wants?

Often, immediate control really isn't necessary.

Take that situation of an 87-year-old woman with dementia who was wandering around in a park with a knife, collecting flowers. In that case, she was only tased--but tasking is known to cause severe mental problems, which an 87-year-old woman who already has dementia certainly doesn't need.

How much danger was she, really? She's 87 years old...it's not going to be long before she sits down and goes to sleep. She's not going to outrun the cop. If she did suddenly become dangerous, he still had all the time in the world to tase her if and when that happened.

He could have simply waited her out while she wandered aimlessly...except that choosing the path of least injury to civilians is not what police are taught.

If the ultimate goal is control, why not call 911? Especially if you are alone and off duty. Again, no shots were fired back at her, so did she continue to shoot? If so, I would think someone is out to kill. Does it say anywhere how many times she shot her gun? My deepest prayers to the family of this good man, I'm horrified by this tragedy and can't imagine how they must feel.

[oceangaia]

Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla

1) There was an obvious large red mat in front of his door which anyone would have seen and said "that's not my apartment" unless by sheer coincidence she had the exact same red mat in front of her door. Only a blind person could not have noticed.

2) Residents of the apartment complex said there had been previous complaints about noise. Amber's apartment was directly on the floor below Botham's. Bingo. She was going up there to complain about noise, in her cop uniform, to make her point be taken even more seriously.

3) there are witnesses who heard a woman saying "let me in" right before the shooting. That means she knew someone was in the apartment. Which means she knew it wasn't her apartment.

The police waited 3 days to arrest her because they didn't want to. It was only after a public outcry for justice that they arrested her.

If it turns out she knew it wasn't her place then it should be murder, not manslaughter.


Police often wait to make arrests if the suspect is cooperating. Sometimes they try hard to make a suspect not believe they are a suspect. The minute they file charges, the suspect lawyers up and stops talking. Maybe she was cooperating. The more she talks, the more chance she slips up and contradicts herself if lying. But yes, I'm she was afforded more leeway than a citizen.

[seain dublin]

Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla

I've also heard (although not confirmed) that she had a dog who lived in her apartment. If she went to an apartment, tried to gain entry and didn't hear a dog barking, that should have been another red flag that it wasn't her place.

The people who believe the cooked-up story about it all being a mistake are either missing half their brain or they just want to excuse her because she's white. If Botham had walked into her apartment and shot her, he'd be sitting in a prison cell right now facing a life sentence.

Agree, unless you're under the influence how do you not know you're on the wrong floor?

As you said you have look down when you put the key in, how do you miss the red carpet?

[happycrow]

This gets worse the more it progresses. Looks like I'm back to assuming bad things about Dallas cops on principle ( i.e., of self-defense). Sigh. for a whole year or two they looked like they were cleaning up.

[san11]

Lets assume a hypothetical scenario.
Protection agency is on duty and protecting a Senator / Prime minister/ President of any country.
After eating the dinner out , the guy from protection team,instead of going to his hotel room went to one floor above ( by mistake or intentional) and shoot the Senator or high official.
Who will you favor in that scenario?
Would you even think of any reason why the protection agency guy did that?
99.9% people will call that scenario a murder.