Dallas to remove Confederate War Memorial (Liberty: home, construction, college)

[turf3]

Look, people are going to argue about the Civil War as long as the United States exists, and probably longer. Personally I believe the Confederates had both great heroism - standing up for their Constitutional rights - and a great moral defect - defending slavery. My point is that it simply doesn't matter. No matter what your opinions on the Civil War or the right of states to secede, the fact of the matter is that clinging to the memorialization of the Confederacy is dividing our country at a time when we need to be united more than ever.


I have difficulty believing that white people who want to cling to the Confederacy are really just interested in history and are not motivated by any racial feeling. It may be so, but I have to question it.

[debtex]

Originally Posted by EDS_

This is where things begin to fall apart. Overstatement and misstatements.

Four of the eleven secessionist states mentioned slavery in their declarations of secession.

I'm not for a moment suggesting the others were anti-slavery but let's get the facts straight.

I'm not for a moment suggesting there weren't other contributing factors at play in the war but let's get the facts straight.

As Kathryn noted many more than four states were openly fighting to maintain a way of life underpinned by slave labor.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

From the Articles of Secession:

Georgia - first two sentences:


Mississippi - second sentence:


South Carolina -first paragraph:


Texas - main paragraph after introduction:


Virginia - first paragraph:


That's five, not four, right there. But wait, there's more!

Alabama:





https://www.historynet.com/which-sta...-secession.htm

Statement during the meeting of delegates of Florida to secede(over half the population of Florida was made up of slaves):
"At the South and with our people, of course, slavery is the element of all value, and a destruction of that destroys all that is property. This party, now soon to take possession of the powers of government, is sectional, irresponsible to us, and, driven on by an infuriated, fanatical madness that defies all opposition, must inevitably destroy every vestige of right growing out of property in slaves." John C McGeeHee

Florida's Ordinance of Secession didn't list ANY causes, though a draft of causes was written (not published however). Who knows, maybe Florida seceded because of, I don't know, a lack of cotton candy in the North.

Louisiana joined several southern states which didn't list a Declaration of Causes. However, the state did send out commissioners to issue statements regarding the causes. This statement is from Louisiana Commissioner George Williamson to the Texas Secession Convention (actually this whole document is fascinating, with numerous references to the institution of slavery):

Address of George Williamson, Commissioner from Louisiana to the Texas Secession Convention

The territory of Arizona, while not mentioning slavery explicitly, alludes to it constantly in it's Ordinance of Secession, which makes for some interesting reading, especially considering that slavery wasn't wide spread in Arizona. But racism was - here's a line from Arizona's Ordinance of Secession:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Arizo...e_of_Secession

Virginia is another state that didn't publish official causes of secession in their Ordinances of Secession. However, in the state's meeting to vote on whether or not to secede (which passed by a large majority) the Governor of Virginia, John Lechtor, opened the meeting with this statement:

This whole address, which opened the meeting to vote on secession, is fascinating (in a horrible way) to read, and consistently refers to upholding slavery:
Furman: Gov. Letcher''s Messageon Federal Relations

Arkansas originally voted to stay in the Union, but in 1861 it became 9th out of 11 states to formally secede. (Tennessee and NC were the final two states to secede.) From the Arkansas Secession Convention:


In a message to the convention dated March 2, 1861, Arkansas Governor Henry M. Rector wrote,
There's a lot more to all that but that's enough to start reading on - read more here:
https://studycivilwar.wordpress.com/...kansas-secede/

Tennessee was a border state, the last to leave the Union and the first to be readmitted after the war ended. In the eastern portions, where slavery was common, the vote to secede was overwhelming, while the western parts of the state, where slavery was uncommon, did not vote in favor of secession. However, here is Tennessee Governor Isham Harris' OPENING SPEECH to the Tennessee Assembly voting on the question of secession in 1861:

That's the opening, but the complete speech is here, with it's focus on upholding the institution of slavery:
Message of Governor Isham Harris to the Tennessee Assembly

North Carolina, the last state to secede, originally sided with Virginia, Tennessee, and Arkansas to stay in the Union, but after Fort Sumter, the state voted to secede. Ironically, NC lost more troops in the Civil War than any other state, even though NC did not have an economy that relied heavily on slavery, due to the yeoman farmers that made up a large portion of the economy. Less than 1/3 of white folks in NC owned slaves and of those, most owned between 1 and 19 slaves. However, wealthy planters made up more of the individuals in political power.

Even so, the FIRST resolution submitted and referred to the NC General Assembly in January 1861 stated:


Missouri was a slave state since it's statehood was instituted in 1821. As a border state, about 1/3 of it's troops supported the Confederacy. About 1/3 of Kentucky's troops also fought for the Confederacy. However, neither state seceded officially from the Union.

From the CONSTITUTION OF THE CONFEDERATE STATES (ALL ELEVEN OF THEM):


But you're right - not all the southern states outlined IN THEIR SECESSION ORDINANCES, that slavery was a central reason - some of them didn't list any causes at all. But slavery was front and center when it came to reasons, as shown in the above official documents and statements as well as many others.

Note again - the Constitution of the Confederate States outlines it very succinctly.

I repped you too early before.

Bravo.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by turf3

Look, people are going to argue about the Civil War as long as the United States exists, and probably longer. Personally I believe the Confederates had both great heroism - standing up for their Constitutional rights - and a great moral defect - defending slavery. My point is that it simply doesn't matter. No matter what your opinions on the Civil War or the right of states to secede, the fact of the matter is that clinging to the memorialization of the Confederacy is dividing our country at a time when we need to be united more than ever.


I have difficulty believing that white people who want to cling to the Confederacy are really just interested in history and are not motivated by any racial feeling. It may be so, but I have to question it.

At the least, like my dad, they are in denial. My dad wasn't racist - I mean, he was a bit moreso than me being from a generation that was raised before the Civil Rights movement, but he was definitely Civil Rights supporting and wouldn't tolerate racist diatribe. But he was anti government, and I think the South's revolt against the Federal Government appealed to him, as well as his love of family heritage, and most of our family was southern and fought for the Confederacy - in fact, all of his ancestors were southern now that I think of it (my mom had some northern ancestry).

So it was convenient for him to downplay the slavery issue and he always insisted that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery, but instead it was fought over state's rights. Period. Wow. Talk about erasing and rewriting history! A cursory look at various Articles of Secession and the Confederate Constitution (adopted by ALL Confederate states) shows that the slavery issue was front and center. The South' economy depended largely upon slave labor - so even the veiled references to the North hurting the south's economy are referencing slavery, in a veiled manner as I stated, but that's the point. Any honest person can see that.

I agree with you that the Confederate states held a mixture of heroism and moral defect. Their vaid arguments were built on the backs of slaves. No bueno.

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by Katana49

It is ridiculous. Shouldn't cost more than a stick or two of dynamite and a dump truck for the pieces.

Just hand out sledgehammers...it'll be gone in no time. I'll even volunteer for the demolition crew.

[hbdwihdh378y9]

Originally Posted by Katana49

Museums and their exhibits do not exist to glorify their subject matter.

Neither do memorials. And spare us the "wrong side of history" crap. Often history marches in the wrong direction. The hypercentralization of political power has been a disaster for human freedom and happiness, yet you consider that to be the right side of history. We should not have one government for 50 states. We cannot all be happy that way.

[hbdwihdh378y9]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

If you want to know why the Confederate states went to war, just read their Articles of Secession.

They never "went to" war. War came to them. They were invaded.

Why were they invaded? Because Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union. He didn't care about the reasons for secession, and he didn't care about slavery. He cared about preserving the Union.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by hbdwihdh378y9

They never "went to" war. War came to them. They were invaded.

Why were they invaded? Because Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union. He didn't care about the reasons for secession, and he didn't care about slavery. He cared about preserving the Union.

Oh please - the South made the first move by attacking Federal troops stationed at Fort Sumter!

For the record though, I'm unimpressed with Lincoln as well.

[Katana49]

Originally Posted by hbdwihdh378y9

Neither do memorials. And spare us the "wrong side of history" crap. Often history marches in the wrong direction. The hypercentralization of political power has been a disaster for human freedom and happiness, yet you consider that to be the right side of history. We should not have one government for 50 states. We cannot all be happy that way.

That's actually EXACTLY what they do.

We do not have one government for 50 states. We have 50 state governments and one federal government. Or I guess you'd like for slavery to be allowed in some states where it's economically feasible for farming or manual labor but outlawed in others?

[JJG]

Originally Posted by hbdwihdh378y9

They never "went to" war. War came to them. They were invaded.

*sheep noises*