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As someone who has been casually looking at real estate the past few years (has to be nearly the perfect house in the right condition for me to consider buying), one thing I see that really bugs me is the rampant low quality of flips and remodels in the area. And furthermore, listing agents seem to take the stance of 'it is what it is' or it's being sold 'as-is' due to the age, even when the home was presented as 'move-in-ready'.
It's not just on a few houses. It seems to be on the overwhelming majority of remodeled older homes I have toured via open house or private showings. People will literally tear a home down to the studs to remodel it aesthetically. Removing walls, new bathrooms, new kitchens, new light fixtures, new windows, new tile flooring but...
They will close the walls back up with original cloth sheathed wiring from 1954. Or they'll close the wall back up without grounding the outlets (or even if they attempt to, the grounds are improperly connected or grounded).
They will install massive kitchen islands, outfitted with MAYBE one electrical receptacle, if you're lucky, even though code may require four. And even then you're lucky if it's installed in a location that is acceptable by code.
Outlets won't have proper gfci protection in the circuit or at the panel. Or outlets aren't run off the dedicated circuits provided by code.
They will install new PVC plumbing directly serving the kitchen/bath areas, but leave seeping 70 year old cast iron mains un-touched that obviously have few (if any) usable years left in them. The new plumbing is often supported incorrectly and sloped incorrectly.
People install kitchen range hoods with flex-duct that vents directly to the attic. Both unacceptable.
The original insulation in the attic will be almost down to nothing or piled in areas such that some areas literally do have nothing over them.
Brand new, beautiful front doors are hung improperly and completely missing weather stripping such that light is visible around multiple sides of the door. Great first impression.
Brand new gas water heaters are vented improperly, creating a ventilation hazard in the home.
I understand that people focus on aesthetics of these homes. I do too - I used to do interior design on the side and I work at an AE firm. But these are homes listed as 'total down to the studs remodel' 'move-in-ready' and I'm talking stuff listed in the 400s+ in established areas. (400s for myself and higher just for fun/curiosity).
It really baffles me, because in most cases these people are putting a significant amount of money into these homes, but they are skimping on a lot of critical components. It's one thing to expect certain things as-is in older homes. It's another when someone completely gut remodels something, lists it as move-in-ready and chooses to ignore these issues. And the issue seems to be further exacerbated by listing agents who insist these are acceptable deficiencies for the age of the home and don't want to do any repairs or provide any credit on list price. Additionally, these homes are almost certainly not getting this work permitted, because most of this work would never pass permit inspections. Or, if they are, we have very poor authorities reviewing the work being done.
In reality, I expect a lot of these homes to sit on the market for a while or get sold to someone unsuspecting / someone who gets starry eyed by the finishes and ignores their home inspector.
But the bigger question is: Is this the generally accepted culture in home buying in Dallas? Is this merely the result of the rapidly increasing prices we've seen in the last several years bringing every armchair house flipper out trying to make a profit who doesn't understand or doesn't value the structure/MEP in these homes? Do people just bypass the permitting process or have greedy/lazy listing agents who don't review the homes they are selling before they list them? It's a rather frustrating trend that seems to apply to (honestly) most remodeled homes I see on the market here. It takes all of 15 minutes in some of these homes for the red flags to start flying.
Don't worry, the HGTV watching crowd does not know how to look for stuff beyond just what's visible and the flippers know it.
I'm sure that's what they rely on. But it is frustrating to see. I'm all for tasteful remodels of older homes, especially in lieu of tearing them down for new builds. But the rampant low-quality remodels almost seems like a plague - eating up quality homes that someone else could have remodeled properly.
The only red flag I need to see is that the house was a flip.
agreed mostly. but I also have multiple architect friends who flip who I have helped (before my time in Dallas) who do very good jobs and are very quality conscious. I enjoyed those projects with them. They weren't cutting corners. If more plumbing work than initially estimated was needed, it was done, at the expense of some aesthetic finish that was originally planned. That seems rare here.
And again the question goes back to the permitting process and who if anyone is reviewing this work?
I mean, I get it. The stuff not up-to-code is bad and I'm wary of flips because of that. But on the "flip" side, most buyers don't care about new electrical or water mains until it goes bad and they have to replace it on their dime. A flipper isn't going to get any return on those items. It isn't surprising they skip it.
If more plumbing work than initially estimated was needed, it was done, at the expense of some aesthetic finish that was originally planned.
Repiping a house costs $20-40k, so I'm sure what 'aesthetic finish' you are changing out to cover that. Also, some of that stuff can be done slowly, and much of the building code is total overkill. Or if it isn't, then you shouldn't even be setting foot inside an unrenovated older home that most assuredly doesn't have GFI/GFCI breakers in the kitchen and has drywall behind the tile in the bathroom, and has maybe two or three outlets in the entire kitchen.
agreed mostly. but I also have multiple architect friends who flip who I have helped (before my time in Dallas) who do very good jobs and are very quality conscious. I enjoyed those projects with them. They weren't cutting corners. If more plumbing work than initially estimated was needed, it was done, at the expense of some aesthetic finish that was originally planned. That seems rare here.
And again the question goes back to the permitting process and who if anyone is reviewing this work?
Good question. In Richardson the work you're describing would have required multiple permits and multiple inspections. I've seen them fail work performed by licensed professionals in my house that had to be remediated, then re-inspected.
Even then, I wouldn't buy a flip in Richardson because who's to say that they pulled permits in the first place (even though they're required)? And how do you trust inspectors? Many are very knowledgeable but some are clearly pulling their reports straight out of their asses. "Get multiple inspections," some people say. Sure...because I have endless pools of time and money to do that.
I haven't seen a flip yet that didn't reach out and slap me in the face with low-quality workmanship and/or cheap-as-dirt materials. I've watched some flips take shape in my neighborhood and I still shake my head in wonder that people actually paid good money ($400k +) to buy those money pits. That's just first glance...god only knows what's going on inside the walls, under the house, in the attic, etc.
As for your flipping friends...I'm glad someone out there actually does it correctly but there are so many cowboys out there that I won't trust any of them.
As someone who has been casually looking at real estate the past few years (has to be nearly the perfect house in the right condition for me to consider buying), one thing I see that really bugs me is the rampant low quality of flips and remodels in the area. And furthermore, listing agents seem to take the stance of 'it is what it is' or it's being sold 'as-is' due to the age, even when the home was presented as 'move-in-ready'.
It's not just on a few houses. It seems to be on the overwhelming majority of remodeled older homes I have toured via open house or private showings. People will literally tear a home down to the studs to remodel it aesthetically. Removing walls, new bathrooms, new kitchens, new light fixtures, new windows, new tile flooring but...
They will close the walls back up with original cloth sheathed wiring from 1954. Or they'll close the wall back up without grounding the outlets (or even if they attempt to, the grounds are improperly connected or grounded).
They will install massive kitchen islands, outfitted with MAYBE one electrical receptacle, if you're lucky, even though code may require four. And even then you're lucky if it's installed in a location that is acceptable by code.
Outlets won't have proper gfci protection in the circuit or at the panel. Or outlets aren't run off the dedicated circuits provided by code.
They will install new PVC plumbing directly serving the kitchen/bath areas, but leave seeping 70 year old cast iron mains un-touched that obviously have few (if any) usable years left in them. The new plumbing is often supported incorrectly and sloped incorrectly.
People install kitchen range hoods with flex-duct that vents directly to the attic. Both unacceptable.
The original insulation in the attic will be almost down to nothing or piled in areas such that some areas literally do have nothing over them.
Brand new, beautiful front doors are hung improperly and completely missing weather stripping such that light is visible around multiple sides of the door. Great first impression.
Brand new gas water heaters are vented improperly, creating a ventilation hazard in the home.
I understand that people focus on aesthetics of these homes. I do too - I used to do interior design on the side and I work at an AE firm. But these are homes listed as 'total down to the studs remodel' 'move-in-ready' and I'm talking stuff listed in the 400s+ in established areas. (400s for myself and higher just for fun/curiosity).
It really baffles me, because in most cases these people are putting a significant amount of money into these homes, but they are skimping on a lot of critical components. It's one thing to expect certain things as-is in older homes. It's another when someone completely gut remodels something, lists it as move-in-ready and chooses to ignore these issues. And the issue seems to be further exacerbated by listing agents who insist these are acceptable deficiencies for the age of the home and don't want to do any repairs or provide any credit on list price. Additionally, these homes are almost certainly not getting this work permitted, because most of this work would never pass permit inspections. Or, if they are, we have very poor authorities reviewing the work being done.
In reality, I expect a lot of these homes to sit on the market for a while or get sold to someone unsuspecting / someone who gets starry eyed by the finishes and ignores their home inspector.
But the bigger question is: Is this the generally accepted culture in home buying in Dallas? Is this merely the result of the rapidly increasing prices we've seen in the last several years bringing every armchair house flipper out trying to make a profit who doesn't understand or doesn't value the structure/MEP in these homes? Do people just bypass the permitting process or have greedy/lazy listing agents who don't review the homes they are selling before they list them? It's a rather frustrating trend that seems to apply to (honestly) most remodeled homes I see on the market here. It takes all of 15 minutes in some of these homes for the red flags to start flying.
Are you seeing these issues in Dallas per se and if so in particular parts of the city?
I ask because my son and his wife have been looking to buy and will buy in Dallas sometime in the next 2 or 3 months and we haven't seen the problems you've noted. Quite frankly, although the sample size is fairly small, we've looked at 6 flips recently and all have been well to very well executed from a technical standpoint.
Repiping a house costs $20-40k, so I'm sure what 'aesthetic finish' you are changing out to cover that. Also, some of that stuff can be done slowly, and much of the building code is total overkill. Or if it isn't, then you shouldn't even be setting foot inside an unrenovated older home that most assuredly doesn't have GFI/GFCI breakers in the kitchen and has drywall behind the tile in the bathroom.
Depends on the size of the home. Most 1500ft2 3:2 older homes on pier and beam are not going to be 20-40k to re-pipe. Especially, if you've already re-done the piping directly serving the kitchen and the master bath. You're probably looking under 10k to complete the job, even being conservative. (I'm also talking more on the sanitary side, not the domestic water side).
And I'm talking about homes where people are putting 60, 80, 100k into the renovations, but skimping on certain things. Not someone painting existing cabinets and installing new quartz and a sink.
Yes, certain things can be done slowly. Invasive electrical work is not one you want to have to deal with later. It helps if you have the attic and pier and beam. But even then, grounding everything or re-wiring can be more invasive then someone would expect to do after buying something that was just taken down to the studs for a remodel.
And the difference is this: you don't expect an older home to automatically have grounded outlets or GFI/GFCI. You don't expect it to have a new 100+Amp panel. You don't expect the piping to be brand new. You don't expect a new water heater etc. That's not my issue. You go into those homes knowing this, and to some extent they are priced accordingly, compared to homes that have been properly remodeled brought further up to current code.
The issue I have is when someone totally brings a home down to the studs or rips out a kitchen and installs a brand new kitchen and does not fix/upgrade certain things. Sometimes code overkill, plenty of other times requirements are for good reason. But regardless of what we think about code, code requires certain new work to be re-installed to meet existing codes. And many of these remodels are blatantly delinquent in this regard. Not installing any outlets on a massive island. Using flex duct to vent your cook top to your attic. Improperly vented gas appliances. Improperly sloped new PVC piping. Things like this are just unacceptable and sloppy at the price of these homes.
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