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I hear people say what you just said, but I really don’t think they mean it, not saying that this is you, but I think it’s become the pc thing to avoid the racist tag.
I say this because I hear more and more people quietly grumble about the massive increase in south Asians buying homes in the top suburbs, especially Plano, Frisco, Allen, Valley Ranch, Coppell etc
In some cases, it’s not uncommon for a street to be 80 percent Indian, and a lot of non Indians living in these suburbs don’t like it. I think they feel like they can express this to me since I’m not Indian, but the resentment is real. It’s one unspoken reason why Prosper is growing; non Indians trying to get away from Indians.
I have to say the economic power of Indians is amazing and terrifying at the same time. Quick story: an Indian coworker was telling me he was born and raised in NYC. Lived there his whole life. His entire extended family was also in NY as well, mother father in-laws siblings, everyone.
One of his sisters moved down here to take a job, loved the low COL and convinced the family to move down. So they bought 15 new homes on one street in Plano, so my coworker has his entire extended family on one street at the same time. Great for him, don’t know how the neighbors on that street feel to be surrounded by one family. I would have mixed feelings to be honest. But amazing financial firepower.
Neither here nor there in the big scheme of things.
So educated, quiet, employed, law-abiding residents of south-Asian origin are a problem why? The Indian population in D/FW is one of the highest in north America but nothing like what I saw in Silicon Valley. From personal experience, while visiting that region to see a newly-relocated friend, at a large apartment property, I'm guessing 95% of its residents were from south Asian. Why, well because American companies, many our neighbors and not Asian sought them out. I find it disturbing those not from India fear them as neighbors.
Sure, most people with means prefer single family. Forgetting our acre lot, pool, three car garage etc. replacing our ~4,500sf, 5 & 5 would be bare minimum triple the cost in a high rise.
The yield is if a city does a whole lot of the things you'd prefer a competing city will not and the first city will lose out.
We’re so use to suburban sprawl in North Texas, we fear density. We act like it’s the boogeyman and the very thing we push for is causing more problems than we realize.
If people had an option...a real option, I’m sure a lot of people would chose a walkable dense neighborhood. Most people drive because they have to, not because they want to.
Indeed. It’s simply the mentality in the Metroplex. That’s not to say that Dallas’ core won’t grow, it will and it has been doing that. But people in the Metroplex seem to rush to the newest game in town. People in Houston view infilling much more favorably on the whole.
Look at it this way, suburbs change in good standing frequently in the Metroplex. What was hot 10 years ago isn’t today. In Houston that isn’t the case. The suburbs that have been favored here have remained relatively constant.
Again it’s not a vs. type thing. The mentality is just different.
That's actually a really good point. The hot suburbs in Houston 10-20+ years ago (Katy, The Woodlands, Cypress, Sugar Land, League City) are still hot today. New suburbs have risen (Pearland, East Montgomery) but it's stayed mostly the same. Meanwhile in DFW, the hot suburbs 20 years ago are now mostly considered outdated and not nearly as desirable like the newer ones. Only exceptions to this rule has been Irving, Plano, and Richardson.
I mean the whole appeal of the Metroplex is the new, pristine suburbia. That's what's attracting the companies and domestic migrants to DFW. It's not Dallas, which happens to just be the major city nearby for a lot of the new residents to DFW.
The initial 96 square miles of Houston radiating from its downtown (which is the inner loop) is denser and more populated than the same 96 square miles radiating from Dallas' downtown. There is more going on inside 610 than inside Loop 12. I think that's what the poster means. Houston certainly has more people living in its core than Dallas. After living in both areas, I can agree that there is more of a "new suburb" mindset in DFW than Houston. Not that it doesn't exist in Houston too, but there's more of a focus on the city.
So for example, a lot of the new mixed-use developments you're seeing in a few of the northern suburbs of DFW would instead be happening somewhere in the core (inside the 610 loop) for Houston. The only suburbs in Houston with development like that is The Woodlands and parts of the Energy Corridor. The core city hoardes that kind of development, whereas in DFW it's spread around the suburbs.
Maybe that has a lot to do with Houston’s expansive city limits. There are not any large suburbs to compete with Houston in its metro. The same cannot be said for Dallas.
After years in DFW and having moved to Houston I suppose one thing Ive grown to appreciate here is that there is a much bigger drive for new and current residents to infill the center of the city. In the Metroplex, it almost seems like a race to the Oklahoma border. There is this mindset that suburbs are exciting at first, but then they get old and people move to other places that are newer. I was speaking with a friend the other day that owns a home and Carrollton and wants to move because its "gone downhill". That seems crazy to me. Its not as new as a place like Frisco but there isnt anything wrong with it either. In the Metroplex it almost seems that when a person says a place is deteriorating, what they really mean is that its not new anymore.
I echo one of the sentiments above that the growth of South Asians in the suburbs north of Dallas is insane! When I moved into Plano, my street was very diverse. There were white, African, Indian, Asian, and Hispanic residents and everyone got along great. When I left, I was the only non-Indian household on the street. The people that bought our house were Indians from the Bay Area.
Im not trying to say that no one wants to move back into the center of Dallas either, but that isnt the mindset for the Metroplex as a whole. People up there, regardless or race of ethnicity, simply prefer suburbs and the newer the better. People in Houston have a much greater interest in living in the city and suburbs are more of an afterthought. Im not at all trying to make this a DFW vs. Houston thing at all either. There is plenty I preferred about the Metroplex and I loved living in Plano and Dallas. Ive found I didnt appreciate Fort Worth enough for starters! But this is one area where I think the mindset in Houston is better.
There is plenty of infill in Dallas - Se Uptown, See old East Dallas, see now west Dallas! Houston, my hometown, is twice the land area as Dallas proper so yea there is MORE area to redevelop/infill given its boundaries. The most noticeable infill area in Houston is the Heights and is the area around Greenspoint. You factor in as infill Bellaire and West U as those have long been upper middle class enclaves and like the Park Cities in Dallas have their own municipalities. I also feel you are mistaken in that people in metro Houston have not sought greener pastures outside the city - Pearland, the Woodlands, Spring, Tomball, Katy/ Cinco Ranch, and Atascosita all have experienced material growth.
PLUS Houston since the 1980s has annexed Clear Lake, Kingwood and unincorporated areas towards Sugarland. Why? Well because of the upper middle class TAX base those areas represent that grew due in part to fleeing Houstonians! In the 1990s, Kingwood fought tooth and nail to NOT be absorbed by Houston; they lost but in doing so, their fight led to major changes in annexation laws.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by city center but more people live in DTD than Downtown Houston.
This area has doubled in population over the last several decades - given that the footprint had to grow.
Quite Clearly the "City Center" doesn't just refer to Downtown.
Houston has done a much better job of densifying to meet demand in the Loop. Part of that is removing the stupid parking minimums they had. Granted, Houston started further back than Dallas did, but at this point they have more or less caught up, and will quickly be passing us. The city has less of a NIMBY attitude to begin with.
There is plenty of infill in Dallas - Se Uptown, See old East Dallas, see now west Dallas! Houston, my hometown, is twice the land area as Dallas proper so yea there is MORE area to redevelop/infill given its boundaries. The most noticeable infill area in Houston is the Heights and is the area around Greenspoint. You factor in as infill Bellaire and West U as those have long been upper middle class enclaves and like the Park Cities in Dallas have their own municipalities. I also feel you are mistaken in that people in metro Houston have not sought greener pastures outside the city - Pearland, the Woodlands, Spring, Tomball, Katy/ Cinco Ranch, and Atascosita all have experienced material growth.
PLUS Houston since the 1980s has annexed Clear Lake, Kingwood and unincorporated areas towards Sugarland. Why? Well because of the upper middle class TAX base those areas represent that grew due in part to fleeing Houstonians! In the 1990s, Kingwood fought tooth and nail to NOT be absorbed by Houston; they lost but in doing so, their fight led to major changes in annexation laws.
Houston Also has way fewer large suburbs. I forget the exact number but DFW has something like 14+ burbs over 100k. Houston has like 2-4.
Don't underestimate the amazing ability of lack of zoning. Paired with the removal of the insipid mid century parking minimums it has allowed the Loop in Houston to EXPLODE.
Let me preface by saying that when I say Plano is in decline, I'm not taking shots at the city, or hinting at any mismanagement that led to the decline. In Plano's case, it's simply a victim of the culture here. We like new, young. This is not the East coast, where homes/cities with 'character' are liked with the not5able exception of Highland Park. It is what it is. Plano's hey day was in the 80s and 90s. It's not a young city by Texas standards anymore. But lets address some issues.
Rising home prices: This is not due to anything particular in Plano. Home prices are rising throughout the metroplex, and in many parts of the state. Heck even Mesquite has rising home prices, but I don't think anyone would consider that town to be thriving.
Like I said before, it's an older city now with much older housing stock. This will in most cases lead to the perception of decline which tends to translate to reality at some point. My brother in law was looking to buy a home 4 years ago, budget $400K. He would freely admit that he actually preferred Plano. It was closer to his job and had everything else he needed, yet Frisco offered to good a deal to pass up. In Plano he was looking at 25 year old homes badly in need of updating. In Frisco he got a 2 year old home, 1,000 more sq feet, and pretty much all the amenities that Plano offered. Only negative was commute which he was ok dealing with. I think this is the decision that many homeowners are making in Frisco's favor and at Plano's expense.
I think you yourself are another example of why Plano is in decline. You've been on this board long enough for me to know some things about you. I think you grew up in Plano? yet when it was time for you to buy a house, you went first to McKinney, then Prosper. At your budget range, you could have bought something in Plano yet chose to go somewhere literally next door instead.
Parts of Plano are doing just fine, especially in West Plano, yet there are several parts of Plano, especially around 14th street that show signs of steep decline. Quite frankly, there are parts of Plano that if you removed the street signs you would think you were in a less than stellar part of Dallas. Cash for gold shops, store signs in Spanish, etc.
Plano malls: I'm old enough to remember when Collin Creek was doing fine, and Willow Bend was going to become the premier shopping destination in the metroplex...fast forward to today. Collin Creek is pretty much dead, and Willow Bend has been in decline for several years now...on the flip side, in Frisco, Stonebriar is booming and there are plans for a second mall as well.
Legacy West is doing ok, but I'm willing to bet that a large chunk of their revenue comes from Frisco and Prosper residents who drive down since there is nothing similar in their towns. Once Frisco does develop something (and they are trying to) then I think the Legacy development is in trouble. I could be wrong though.
Again I don't want to sound like a Plano hater (too late I know). I think the city has managed itself as well as could be expected, and still punches above its weight class. It's done far better than Richardson did in that regard. And I'm sure in 30 years I'll be an old geezer typing about how Frisco is in decline and Celina/Gunter/Anna are the future.
Shops of Willow Bend were designed poorly as unlike Stonebriar it has no entertainment component - no Dave & Busters, No multiplex movie Cinema, to help drive foot traffic. It was also built too close to Stonebriar which with its opening, choked off traffic that may have come further south to Willowbend but saw no need with the new Frisco mall. Third, it lacks the cache that Legacy West and Legacy East created with their mixed used, street scape look. Being mixed-use creates a captive audience from the office workers and residents for services in Legacy. The Willow Bend hasn't that advantage.
And what you said about Frisco/Prosper residents coming to Legacy, well that's a GOOD thing! You are spending money in Plano not Frisco/Prosper contributing to Plano's taxes! That's the benefit of Plano having Office development. Those people work there. Its like commuters into D.C. and NYC from surrounding areas. They spend money in YOUR town not theirs. That said, Frisco is a threat to Plano more than any of its other northern neighbors for two reasons:
1. Because its got several entertainment venues - the soccer stadium, the baseball stadium, the small arena and the Cowboys Star complex, which Plano has nothing comparable. Then Frisco also announced the PGA is relocating there from Florida.
2. Its zoned areas for large office development. It think Dr. Pepper/Snapple has announced plans to jump from Plano to Frisco by 2021.
1. Because its got several entertainment venues - the soccer stadium, the baseball stadium, the small arena and the Cowboys Star complex, which Plano has nothing comparable. Then Frisco also announced the PGA is relocating there from Florida.
2. Its zoned areas for large office development. It think Dr. Pepper/Snapple has announced plans to jump from Plano to Frisco by 2021.
I think point #2 shows how disposable these suburbs are. Plano isn't enough of a "Location" to keep companies from jumping to the next Taxpayer subsidized shiny new development every so many years.
Let me preface by saying that when I say Plano is in decline, I'm not taking shots at the city, or hinting at any mismanagement that led to the decline. In Plano's case, it's simply a victim of the culture here. We like new, young. This is not the East coast, where homes/cities with 'character' are liked with the not5able exception of Highland Park. It is what it is. Plano's hey day was in the 80s and 90s. It's not a young city by Texas standards anymore. But lets address some issues.
I think you are categorically wrong here. There are tons of people that are renovating the 70's and 80's homes in Plano. You may like new, but most people moving to the suburbs value a good school district, a safe place for a family, shopping, amenities, etc. Plano has all of that, and that is why values continue to increase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life
Rising home prices: This is not due to anything particular in Plano. Home prices are rising throughout the metroplex, and in many parts of the state. Heck even Mesquite has rising home prices, but I don't think anyone would consider that town to be thriving.
LOL of COURSE it has to do with Plano. If Plano didn't have that great school district and tons of job opportunities, it would not be as highly sought after. Prices are rising everywhere, but Plano's increases outpace plenty of other suburbs, and that is due to aspects of Plano itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life
Like I said before, it's an older city now with much older housing stock. This will in most cases lead to the perception of decline which tends to translate to reality at some point. My brother in law was looking to buy a home 4 years ago, budget $400K. He would freely admit that he actually preferred Plano. It was closer to his job and had everything else he needed, yet Frisco offered to good a deal to pass up. In Plano he was looking at 25 year old homes badly in need of updating. In Frisco he got a 2 year old home, 1,000 more sq feet, and pretty much all the amenities that Plano offered. Only negative was commute which he was ok dealing with. I think this is the decision that many homeowners are making in Frisco's favor and at Plano's expense.
That's your opinion. Frankly, brick homes built in Plano look like brick homes built in Frisco, McKinney, etc... on the outside. Except in Plano, you're getting a .25 acre lot. Renovate the interior to your taste, and you aren't missing anything "new." I'll address your second point re: Frisco/Plano below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life
I think you yourself are another example of why Plano is in decline. You've been on this board long enough for me to know some things about you. I think you grew up in Plano? yet when it was time for you to buy a house, you went first to McKinney, then Prosper. At your budget range, you could have bought something in Plano yet chose to go somewhere literally next door instead.
I did grow up in Plano. I moved the family to McKinney for several reasons. One, my commute when I had one was to Plano, 12 miles. That was enough separation from my parents for my wife and I that they wouldn't be showing up all the time. I also didn't have children at the time so the school district was not a concern. Our budget stretched further in McKinney, since it didn't have as good of schools nor proximity to jobs. However, neither of that was a detriment to us since I normally worked from home and had no children. I'm always looking to maximize my bang for the buck, so McKinney won out.
Same thing goes for Prosper. (Just to be clear, Plano was in our search area during both house hunts, as were Frisco, and Allen.) We got an absolute steal on our house that simply could not be passed up. For what we got in Prosper, we would have had to pay $300k more in Plano. That was simply not doable at the time for us. But again, the lack of a commute, combined with Prosper's good schools made Plano's benefits less valuable for us. But the key here is desirability... being in Plano adds $200k to the value of a similar home, which proves Plano is not declining, but rather increasing in desirability vs other areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life
Parts of Plano are doing just fine, especially in West Plano, yet there are several parts of Plano, especially around 14th street that show signs of steep decline. Quite frankly, there are parts of Plano that if you removed the street signs you would think you were in a less than stellar part of Dallas. Cash for gold shops, store signs in Spanish, etc.
What city doesn't have those? McKinney has a bona fide slum which is never talked about that is worse than anything else I can think of in all of Collin County. Plano has changed a lot on the east side, it's better now than it was in the 80's, when much of Plano was new, and that's because the stigma of living east of 75 has largely been forgotten.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life
Plano malls: I'm old enough to remember when Collin Creek was doing fine, and Willow Bend was going to become the premier shopping destination in the metroplex...fast forward to today. Collin Creek is pretty much dead, and Willow Bend has been in decline for several years now...on the flip side, in Frisco, Stonebriar is booming and there are plans for a second mall as well.
Legacy West is doing ok, but I'm willing to bet that a large chunk of their revenue comes from Frisco and Prosper residents who drive down since there is nothing similar in their towns. Once Frisco does develop something (and they are trying to) then I think the Legacy development is in trouble. I could be wrong though.
So am I. Collin Creek IS dead, and the plans for its revitalization have been in the works for years. These things don't happen overnight. It's going to be turned into an area similar to Legacy West, which is very popular. Willow Bend has had some struggles, no doubt, but from what I understand, has also turned the corner with new development plans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life
Again I don't want to sound like a Plano hater (too late I know). I think the city has managed itself as well as could be expected, and still punches above its weight class. It's done far better than Richardson did in that regard. And I'm sure in 30 years I'll be an old geezer typing about how Frisco is in decline and Celina/Gunter/Anna are the future.
It's not being a Plano hater, but your primary assertion is that Plano is declining just because the homes aren't new is ridiculous. Most homes have been renovated by now in the best areas of Plano. I know, because I've shopped them many times in our house hunting. We almost ended up in Deerfield instead of Prosper, in a home that was built in 1988.
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