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Sadly though, he might be right. $300k for a single family house is not really upper middle class anymore in any of the best, or even just average suburbs that appeal to families here in the metroplex. I've witnessed co workers and friends house hunting over the last couple of years. If your budget is under $300K, it's tough. Either you get outbid by all cash investors, or have to make some severe compromises on either commute, size or something else.
I think you are confusing "middle class" with "middle of the road for a given area." The average house in Boulder is probably about a million bucks. But that doesn't mean the person who is buying such a house is middle class. Many areas have no middle class housing.
I think you are confusing "middle class" with "middle of the road for a given area." The average house in Boulder is probably about a million bucks. But that doesn't mean the person who is buying such a house is middle class. Many areas have no middle class housing.
I’m not sure I’m understanding you here. Are you saying there are no middle class housing in dfw?
I’m not sure I’m understanding you here. Are you saying there are no middle class housing in dfw?
No, I'm saying that when we start putting restrictions on the criteria like good schools or a good suburb or within a certain distance from downtown or requiring an updated house, there might be no middle class housing. I'm not saying that's actually the case, only that the simple fact that there are no good houses under $300k in West Plano (or similar) doesn't mean that you need $400k for middle class housing in West Plano. It means there's simply no middle class housing in West Plano. Does that make sense? "Middle class" doesn't just mean middle of the road in a specific area.
No, I'm saying that when we start putting restrictions on the criteria like good schools or a good suburb or within a certain distance from downtown or requiring an updated house, there might be no middle class housing. I'm not saying that's actually the case, only that the simple fact that there are no good houses under $300k in West Plano (or similar) doesn't mean that you need $400k for middle class housing in West Plano. It means there's simply no middle class housing in West Plano. Does that make sense? "Middle class" doesn't just mean middle of the road in a specific area.
Exactly. By definition, there are few "middle class" people in West Plano (or Colleyville or Southlake or for god's sake Park Cities). There are some "upper middle class", but (especially in PC), virtually everyone would be "upper class" by most objective definitions. The simple fact of being able to afford to live in West Plano or certain other areas makes one "upper middle class" at a minimum, and more likely "upper class".
I know that where I'm at, "upper middle class" is pretty much the *minimum* needed to live here (OK, there are some trailer homes here and there are a couple areas with ~1,500sf homes, believe it or not, but 98% of the housing stock...isn't). Median household income here is 230K. By contrast, median household income in all of DFW is about 60K. "Upper Middle Class" is probably in the 120-140K range as others have noted, give or take (some might argue it starts around 100K). Only being able to afford a "below median" house in West Plano or certain other areas just means one is not Upper Class.
As usual, I find myself agreeing with virtually everything TC80 has said and have little reason to add on to her rough budgeting numbers, although I'm more than capable of doing a deep dive into that stuff. I lived for several years on a shoestring budget and have also been fortunate enough to live on a...uh, a fancy dress shoes budget (?) , and could go into great detail in the various gradations along the way.
Exactly. By definition, there are few "middle class" people in West Plano (or Colleyville or Southlake or for god's sake Park Cities). There are some "upper middle class", but (especially in PC), virtually everyone would be "upper class" by most objective definitions. The simple fact of being able to afford to live in West Plano or certain other areas makes one "upper middle class" at a minimum, and more likely "upper class".
As usual, I find myself agreeing with virtually everything TC80 has said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost
No, I'm saying that when we start putting restrictions on the criteria like good schools or a good suburb or within a certain distance from downtown or requiring an updated house, there might be no middle class housing. I'm not saying that's actually the case, only that the simple fact that there are no good houses under $300k in West Plano (or similar) doesn't mean that you need $400k for middle class housing in West Plano. It means there's simply no middle class housing in West Plano. Does that make sense? "Middle class" doesn't just mean middle of the road in a specific area.
I agree with both of you and what was kinda what me and TC80 where trying to get him to understand but he didn't want to hear it.
For example he was trying to say that the 2 houses in canyon creek that where shown to him at only 330k weren't upper middle class because of flawed reasoning. He tried to say the comp houses where 2 houses in an upper class neighbhorhood (praire creek) and a 3rd house thats on a private country club .5 acre lot and iscurrently being turned into a million dollar manison (they actually just layed the new foundation down last week on it) are all 3 "comp houses"........ (reality is you listed 3 upper class houses in a upper middle class neighbhorhood and then tried to pass off the house you didn't like price wise as "middle class" because it didn't fit your view of suburb pricing )
We tried telling him that's not how this work. Your distorted view of classes or neighbhorhoods doesn't get to determine what is what. The two houses I showed him are an upper middle class, if you want REGULAR middle class then the two neighbhorhoods south are middle class (northrich and greenwood hills).
Like both of you stated you can't just go "it's not the highest tier of a neighbhorhood so it's middle class", thats now how this works.
Last edited by mastershake575; 01-08-2020 at 11:17 PM..
While this wasn't what the premise of the thread originally was, I'd have a hard time defining a home under $300k as middle class around here. FWIW we sold our last home for $330k 5 years ago, now it's worth about $400k, and we sold it to a couple of kids who were middle class, but that was a starter home for them.
I think you'd have to look at homes in the $600k+ range before you were in upper middle class territory, probably up to $1 mil. After that, if you can afford a $1mil+ home, you are upper class no matter how you slice it.
While this wasn't what the premise of the thread originally was, I'd have a hard time defining a home under $300k as middle class around here. FWIW we sold our last home for $330k 5 years ago, now it's worth about $400k, and we sold it to a couple of kids who were middle class, but that was a starter home for them.
I think you'd have to look at homes in the $600k+ range before you were in upper middle class territory, probably up to $1 mil. After that, if you can afford a $1mil+ home, you are upper class no matter how you slice it.
Ok....hopping back in because there are some really skewed perceptions on this forum.
HHI’s for DFW:
40-80% Percentile range: $49k-$122k
80-90% Percentile range: $122k-217k
90%+ Percentile range: $217+
Mean of the top 5% is $390k
*Depending on one’s definition of “upper middle class” as a percentile - and I have a *HARD* time calling 80-90% range any title with “middle class” in it, it seems the upper middle class income range for Dallas area IS in the $100-120k range. That makes the households better off than 70-80% of all households.
Using a multiple of 3x income for home purchases, that would put an “average” home value for each bucket at:
40-80% income range: $150-366k range homes
80-90% income range: $366k-650k range homes
90%+ income range: $650k+
Mean of the top 5%: $1.17M
I cannot get on board with your assertion that $600k+ homes are the starting point of upper middle class because then upper middle class starts with the 90% decile of households. That’s not upper MIDDLE anything.
Bottom line: there are many neighborhoods (and entire cities) in DFW that don’t have any housing for upper middle class families, let alone middle class. There are entire suburbs full of upper class income households (top 20%). Just because your next door neighbor makes 5X what you do and drives a Maserati doesn’t make you “upper middle class”. You’re BOTH RICH in the big picture if you’re living in a $450k neighborhood (and not up to your eyeballs in debt).
Ok....hopping back in because there are some really skewed perceptions on this forum.
HHI’s for DFW:
40-80% Percentile range: $49k-$122k
80-90% Percentile range: $122k-217k
90%+ Percentile range: $217+
Mean of the top 5% is $390k
*Depending on one’s definition of “upper middle class” as a percentile - and I have a *HARD* time calling 80-90% range any title with “middle class” in it, it seems the upper middle class income range for Dallas area IS in the $100-120k range. That makes the households better off than 70-80% of all households.
Using a multiple of 3x income for home purchases, that would put an “average” home value for each bucket at:
40-80% income range: $150-366k range homes
80-90% income range: $366k-650k range homes
90%+ income range: $650k+
Mean of the top 5%: $1.17M
I cannot get on board with your assertion that $600k+ homes are the starting point of upper middle class because then upper middle class starts with the 90% decile of households. That’s not upper MIDDLE anything.
Bottom line: there are many neighborhoods (and entire cities) in DFW that don’t have any housing for upper middle class families, let alone middle class. There are entire suburbs full of upper class income households (top 20%). Just because your next door neighbor makes 5X what you do and drives a Maserati doesn’t make you “upper middle class”. You’re BOTH RICH in the big picture if you’re living in a $450k neighborhood (and not up to your eyeballs in debt).
Reinforcing this, in a neighborhood nearby, houses have been selling in the 600-675K range (guesstimate from final listing prices, obviously). These are NOT "middle class" houses. The vast majority of people would consider them "upper class" houses. Yes, there are even nicer houses a block over from those, but so what?
I'd note that if one has the data, you'd prefer median of the upper 5% rather than mean, because the income distribution at the far end has a long tail. However, this reinforces TC's point above (which several other posters have been making) -just because there are parents at the local school who are professional athletes or whatever, who make 50-100 *times* as much as many of the other parents, doesn't make the latter group "not rich". It just means they're not extremely high income ("lower upper class" vs. "upper upper class" or whatever).
*Depending on one’s definition of “upper middle class” as a percentile - and I have a *HARD* time calling 80-90% range any title with “middle class” in it,
Just because your next door neighbor makes 5X what you do and drives a Maserati doesn’t make you “upper middle class”. You’re BOTH RICH in the big picture if you’re living in a $450k neighborhood (and not up to your eyeballs in debt).
As you said, it depends on your definition... and this is not just about income. This thread morphed early on to be the OP's desire to be upper middle class. The fact is that among wealthy suburbs, "middle" class families are on average living in $450-500k homes now with the run up in pricing over the last decade. A lot of them can't afford to move and stay in the area, and we've seen that the past several years now with the short market inventory.
To be solidly above those homeowners, you're looking at $600k homes or more. My own personal definition of upper middle class in this area is a HHI of $200k-$400k. "Rich" I define as anything above that in this area.
Now, go to some small town in Arkansas and $100k could qualify for upper middle class, and $200k to be rich.
On the flip side, take that $400k income and live in San Francisco or New York... You definitely won't feel rich.
As you said, it depends on your definition... and this is not just about income. This thread morphed early on to be the OP's desire to be upper middle class. The fact is that among wealthy suburbs, "middle" class families are on average living in $450-500k homes now with the run up in pricing over the last decade. A lot of them can't afford to move and stay in the area, and we've seen that the past several years now with the short market inventory.
To be solidly above those homeowners, you're looking at $600k homes or more. My own personal definition of upper middle class in this area is a HHI of $200k-$400k. "Rich" I define as anything above that in this area.
Now, go to some small town in Arkansas and $100k could qualify for upper middle class, and $200k to be rich.
On the flip side, take that $400k income and live in San Francisco or New York... You definitely won't feel rich.
Just to be clear - your definition of “upper middle class” in DFW is being in the TOP 5% OF ALL HOUSEHOLDS.
That’s insane.
But you’re welcome to “feel” that way.
The facts say otherwise.
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, and could go into great detail in the various gradations along the way.
