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11th grade students in California already take a standardized test called Smarter Balance that the UC system is considering relying on.
And the debate about using standardized tests at all is intensifying.
"UC Berkeley Chancellor Carol Christ said she is skeptical that the university would need to replace the SAT with another exam. “I believe a student’s high school record provides ample evidence of their performance,” said Christ, who has publicly supported dropping the SAT requirement, and oversaw Smith College’s move to a test-optional admissions policy while serving as president there. “We know California high schools really well. I’m not sure we do need a substitute test.”"
The current plan for California schools aims to have their own test by 2025. There is only a small window between now and then where in-state residents only would go through a test-blind admissions process.
I highly doubt test-blind admissions will become a big thing, and any new test would be subject to the same "weaknesses" that the SAT and ACT are subject to.
It seems that you think I am arguing that there has been no discussion, or even growing discussion, about standardized tests at colleges across the country. I've not said that. It is sometimes tough to have these discussions with you because you often respond to things I didn't say, you don't interpret my posts correctly or you don't accurately interpret the articles you post. I know that sounds hostile, but I promise I'm not trying to be. I'm just saying that I think 90% of our "disagreement" often comes from inaccurate communication.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calgirlinnc
You will debate definitions and nuances between words, but did you even read the articles I had originally posted? Lots of schools are saying the same thing, not just TCU, which you would know if you looked at my links.
Due to COVID 19, students applying to schools for Fall 2021 may not have to take the SAT or ACT. That is the point. All this was mentioned to someone who advised taking each test 3 times.
You're taking my response to NumbersGuy out of context. I was simply pointing out that he is responding to a post of mine in which I didn't even mention schools that specifically say students won't be impacted by not providing test scores.
Seriously, you're giving me a "talk to the hand"?
I'm not arguing against the idea that students "may not have to take the SAT or ACT." I've never argued against that. I am instead arguing that very few schools are test-blind in their admissions. Being test-optional is not the same thing as being test-blind.
I do this for my day job. You are arguing with me because you know how to use Google, but you're missing major nuances like the SAT general test versus SAT subject tests or test-optional admissions versus test-blind admissions.
I am certain there will be some test-blind schools temporarily. But most won't be, so it hardly makes sense to tell a kid who is just starting his junior year to not worry about the SAT or ACT.
It is sometimes tough to have these discussions with you because you often respond to things I didn't say, you don't interpret my posts correctly or you don't accurately interpret the articles you post. I know that sounds hostile, but I promise I'm not trying to be. I'm just saying that I think 90% of our "disagreement" often comes from inaccurate communication.
You're taking my response to NumbersGuy out of context. I was simply pointing out that he is responding to a post of mine in which I didn't even mention schools that specifically say students won't be impacted by not providing test scores.
Seriously, you're giving me a "talk to the hand"?
Yes.
Because your posts are usually condescending and frequently pedantic. You think you are the only one who is ever right. You argue with everyone and nit pick to death. You may not be *trying* to be hostile, but you come across that way.
I don't want you to have discussions with me. If it is frustrating to you, then don't engage. I've asked you before, stop responding. I don't care that it's an open board or a free world or anything else.
Did it ever occur to you that people read these posts who never respond, and that just maybe they are getting information that they didn't know before? Someone likely didn't know about the change at TCU or some of the other schools. These boards are often about more than the OP.
I have gotten into it before with other posters on the Dallas forum. We have disagreed about everything from the weather to politics to brick siding, but none of these people remained antagonistic. All of them moved on and let go. They do not keep attacking my intelligence or my posts.
It is a lovely thing to have an anonymous place to go to ask questions, voice opinions, vent frustrations, get information and so forth. It is being ruined now, because almost every thread turns into a contentious discussion filled with minutiae and bickering. It is awful. So enjoy the bickering and the bashing and the discussions over word nuances. I am completely done.
Last edited by calgirlinnc; 05-31-2020 at 07:28 PM..
I will say that I think one defense of standardized tests is that they identify kids like this. High-potential yet under- performing high school students often have bad grades but high test scores. Your friend was clearly an exception to this, but in general, standardized tests can help identify kids who have high intelligence but may not have had their head screwed on straight from ages 15-18.
The highest SAT in our high school class is on my Facebook. He never went to college, and had a career pumping gas at his father's Sinclair station. He looks happy and healthy now, however.
Marijuana also took the personal drive out of quite a few very intelligent people--starting around 1971. My stepson is a highly skilled laser cutting machine mechanic in a machine shop, but has never met his potential. His 20's and 30's were just one big blur.
Manic depression also removed a bunch of very intelligent people from education. My college student cousin died at age 35, and his only job was 2 years in the Navy. We later learned he had Bachelor's degrees in Accounting and French, but never told anyone. He was a National Merit Scholar finalist. He intimidated his college professors with his IQ and knowledge.
I will say that I think one defense of standardized tests is that they identify kids like this. High-potential yet under- performing high school students often have bad grades but high test scores. Your friend was clearly an exception to this, but in general, standardized tests can help identify kids who have high intelligence but may not have had their head screwed on straight from ages 15-18.
I went through some difficult personal things the first few years of high school which impacted my grades. The next few years my grades improved quite a bit but it still really hurt my GPA. If it wasn't for my SAT scores I probably wouldn't have been admitted to TCU. That would have been a shame because I did very well there.
My co-worker's son was a really motivated young man, and he was wanting to go to medical school. He applied at Duke University because 97% of their graduates were accepted into medical schools. The kid made 1250 on his SAT and with great grades was accepted. When the parents took him to Duke initially, the father had to say, "Son, how does it feel to be average?" He wasn't used to being around such smart students. And he did make it to UAB Medical School and is an oncologist in San Diego. 85 acres of timber and a 55 T Bird with 23,000 miles were sold to put the boy at Duke.
Other co-worker's son was okay in high school, but didn't make top grades. But with a SAT of 1350, he was accepted at Georgia Tech. Come to find out, Georgia Tech's SAT scores are the highest of all public colleges in the U.S. Last time I heard, the kid was working for DISH TV and finishing a PhD in Electrical Engineering at Georgia Tech.
I have a close friend that graduated at the bottom of his East Tennessee high school class. He made so low on the ACT that his school counselor told him he'd never be accepted at any college. Fortunately, a little religious college close by accepted him, and he went on student loans. All of a sudden, this low potential student found a thirst for knowledge, and he did okay in his little college. He went on to get a Masters and PhD in Chemistry at the University of Tennessee. In his thirties, he went on to Medical School and is a respected oncologist. Through all this, he had 5 daughters, and his wife was going to college--up thru Nurse Practitioner. He also has been on 53 mission trips to the farthest points of the earth. His last doctorate was in Theology, and his wife now has a Masters in Counseling. They've been in college 39 years. Whewww, what a guy.
it's one thing to be a high potential student and go to a top university and achieve one's goals. But it's another story to find someone that's a terrible student who found teachers that motivated him to make life changes. And when you can do so much for mankind medically and otherwise, it's especially great to see. And I'm so fortunate to call him a friend.
The part about Duke getting 97% percent of medical school wannabes into medical school isn't accurate.
Duke claims 85% and that number is tricked up. As with many of the best pre-medish schools Duke has specific advising/advisors for those angling towards medical school. Duke weens "weaker" candidates out of the final pool with this process. In other words it's more like 85% of the top 50% of those with a decent shot.
____________________
I tend to agree with your thoughts about underperforming high schoolers who do well in college.
1. This group is strong majority male.
2. This group is better identified via test scores than grades.
3. This group is not small.
The part about Duke getting 97% percent of medical school wannabes into medical school isn't accurate.
Duke claims 85% and that number is tricked up. As with many of the best pre-medish schools Duke has specific advising/advisors for those angling towards medical school. Duke weens "weaker" candidates out of the final pool with this process. In other words it's more like 85% of the top 50% of those with a decent shot.
____________________
I tend to agree with your thoughts about underperforming high schoolers who do well in college.
1. This group is strong majority male.
2. This group is better identified via test scores than grades.
3. This group is not small.
Correct. My college has a 100% med school placement rate but only for members of whatever the name was of the pre-med society, and the advisor had final say on who gained access to that. As a practical matter, the organic chemistry classes weeded most people out voluntarily. In the end you had maybe a small number of people pushing for the MD failing to get the advisor’s blessing. Most ended up abroad or going the DO route (and most I know are successful, not knocking that path) but always take with a grain of salt something that sounds too good to be true
My son will be starting his Junior year in a North Dallas High School. He is highly interested in getting into Pre-med courses locally here in the area. His school did offer a dual credit program at a local community college but unfortunately his Lazy school counselor messed up the enrollment deadline dates and made him miss the sign-up date. She refused to own up to her mistake and we do not expect her to be any useful. I was wondering if hiring an independent College admission counselor worth the money. It appears to be very expensive but wanted to know if anyone had any insights on their services and had a recommendation for a counselor.
correct. My college has a 100% med school placement rate but only for members of whatever the name was of the pre-med society, and the advisor had final say on who gained access to that. As a practical matter, the organic chemistry classes weeded most people out voluntarily. In the end you had maybe a small number of people pushing for the md failing to get the advisor’s blessing. Most ended up abroad or going the do route (and most i know are successful, not knocking that path) but always take with a grain of salt something that sounds too good to be true
I went through some difficult personal things the first few years of high school which impacted my grades. The next few years my grades improved quite a bit but it still really hurt my GPA. If it wasn't for my SAT scores I probably wouldn't have been admitted to TCU. That would have been a shame because I did very well there.
My child did well on the ACT (a 33, if I'm remembering correctly) but was barely in the top 25% of her high school class GPA-wise. UT Austin took a chance on her, and she is in the College of Natural Science on the pre-med track. As an incoming Junior, she has finished OChem and many of the tough weed-out classes.
I'm proud to say that she has earned all As with only 1, I think, A-. Public medical schools in TX disregard the plus and minus parts of grades, so she currently has a 4.0 for medical school application purposes.
I've very grateful that UT looked past her grades in high school and saw some potential to do well taking rigorous science classes.
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