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I don't think that preparation for life can be taught in a school. And somehow, children were prepared for life before there was the mass education system we have now.
All of these subjects are relative. No, high school isn't going to fully indoctrinate you in what to expect for the rest of your life. However, we are seriously shortchanging our youth if it doesn't offer a degree of preparation for the next step. You're happy with raw knowledge; others demand more.
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Don't be critical of the ability to "regurgitate" knowledge... it's actually an advance in human society
The ability to memorize and repeat what you have learned by rote is fine, but it is by no means everything. The ability to think for yourself, within the constraints you are given (read deadline), is much more important in my opinion.
I'd like to reiterate that school is real life, not separate from it, although I do believe that school can, indeed, prepare one for later life, whether the attempt is made consciously or not.
Maybe it will, maybe not. But it definitely teaches people to read and write and compute.
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I think the idea of a separate "testing department" is an excellent one, although I wouldn't want to be the one trying to sell that to the taxpayers.
It may not be that difficult a sell, since the testing department would free a teacher's time and make him more productive. It's a matter of reassigning the work, rather than creating more of it.
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I'd also like to revisit the "timeliness" idea. Correct me, please, if I mis-state this, but I believe the idea was put forth that a student should be able to turn in work at pretty much any time---that the quality of the work is the concern, not its timeliness. Also, a student who fails a test can re-take it, to demonstrate that he has come to a better understanding of the material.
That's right. Complete and utter forgiveness of your previous errors and prevarications. If you have finally mastered a subject, your previous misunderstandings are forgotten.
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In the ideal, this sounds good, but, as a matter of practicality, where do we draw the line, or do we draw it at all, on when one's record can no longer be revisted? Do we allow a student to re-take a test in April that he had failed in October? Can a high school senior turn in a paper he was assigned in middle school? Can a Nobel laureate re-do his fourth grade Science Fair project? I realize some of these cases are extreme, but I think they show that a line needs to be drawn somewhere.
Actually, I'd like to be retested in some of the subjects I didn't do well in in college. I think I understand them now, but then again, maybe I'm just fooling myself.
My answer is yes... that a school's testing department should be able to retest a student in areas he previously studied, to validate his current level of understanding. If you didn't get third grade arithmetic, you'll probably have a problem with fifth grade arithmetic, because knowledge is cumulative, it builds upon previous mastery of other knowledges.
All of these subjects are relative. No, high school isn't going to fully indoctrinate you in what to expect for the rest of your life. However, we are seriously shortchanging our youth if it doesn't offer a degree of preparation for the next step. You're happy with raw knowledge; others demand more.
I'd agree with you, to a degree. The way we organize and operate our schools is going to be compatible with the way we organize and operate our workplaces, and our entire society. We don't have to deliberately engineer that into our school curriculum, it'll happen naturally. So in a sense, the experience of getting through 12 years of school and another 4-8 years of college is compatible with, and a preparation for, the rest of your life.
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The ability to memorize and repeat what you have learned by rote is fine, but it is by no means everything. The ability to think for yourself, within the constraints you are given (read deadline), is much more important in my opinion.
Again, I agree. The ability to take the existing knowledgebase you have, and develop new knowledge from it, is what we are trying to do. That is definitely an ability that must be tested for.
But are deadlines really important? For example, Einstein did not develop his theory of relativity in college, it took a few years of thinking it over, while he worked as a patent examiner, before he finally mastered the concept.
But are deadlines really important? For example, Einstein did not develop his theory of relativity in college, it took a few years of thinking it over, while he worked as a patent examiner, before he finally mastered the concept.
Again, Ace, I would answer with an emphatic 'yes'. I fully agree that there are always exceptions. You can cite examples such as Einstein, Gates, DaVinci, etc. But for each of those, I can show you 1000 other people who benefitted from the discipline that came with working hard to do a good job and within the time constraints that were allowed.
Again, I'm not trying to say that if a kid turns everything in on time he's going to go straight into a 100K job out of high school, and yes, I am probably spending too much time harping on the point.
I just feel like school should in some small part prepare you not just to be smart, but to think and to be disciplined enough to meet deadlines. In most careers, discipline means a lot.
Again, Ace, I would answer with an emphatic 'yes'. I fully agree that there are always exceptions. You can cite examples such as Einstein, Gates, DaVinci, etc. But for each of those, I can show you 1000 other people who benefitted from the discipline that came with working hard to do a good job and within the time constraints that were allowed.
Again, I'm not trying to say that if a kid turns everything in on time he's going to go straight into a 100K job out of high school, and yes, I am probably spending too much time harping on the point.
I just feel like school should in some small part prepare you not just to be smart, but to think and to be disciplined enough to meet deadlines. In most careers, discipline means a lot.
Well, we don't need schools to teach "timeliness" as an academic subject, since it is not based on a body of knowledge. It is pretty much engrained in our culture.
Being the first horse out of the gate is not enough to determine a winner. For example, Google was a late entry in the field of internet search engines, but has now dominated the field. The best, the final winner, is very often not the first, or the most timely.
If I were to hire somebody to teach me the theory of relativity, I'd be more concerned about whether or not I understood the concept, rather than how long it took to grasp the essentialls of the concept. My accountant might be more concerned about how many hours it cost to learn the subject, and the cost-value ratio of the exercise, but if I just want to learn the theory, and I am rich enough to pay for it, cost does not matter. The fact that I took 20 hours to learn it, instead of 10, does not mean I understand it any less.
In our public schools, cost does matter. Still, the essential purpose of the schools is determined by how well, the schools teach arcane subjects such as relativity theory, or even common subjects such as readin', writin', and rithmetic. If the schools are inefficient in doing this, the fault lies with the schools, not the students.
What is it that really matters? It matters that the students come out of their school years with a basic knowledgebase, and the ability to call on it to develop new knowledge. How timely they were in turning in assignments does not matter.
Well, what if their future places of employment require them to turn in work on time, regardless of its level of quality? They will quickly adjust to that. It's not something that needs to be "taught" in school.
I would love it if all these people spoutng off about the "right" way to teach were to be in the classroom for just one week under the same standards that teachers are held accountable for...and then we would see how prescient they are...
Good Lord. And I wish that only meteorologists would talk about Texas weather on this forum, and only realtors would talk about where to live. What do you not understand about a forum being a place where people post their opinions?
If you have something to add to the discussion, other than snide remarks with no substance, I'm sure we'd all love to hear them. If not, you are still welcome to post, because this is a place for all people to post their opinions.
I felt slightly guilty for my last abrasive reply following one of your little jabs; but not this time. Again, just because you were or are a teacher, doesn't make you any more special than anyone else on this board.
And we're going to continue to "spout off" as long as we wish...
Last edited by tycobb2522; 10-07-2008 at 01:42 PM..
Reason: Made it just slightly less abrasive than it should have been.
Well, we don't need schools to teach "timeliness" as an academic subject, since it is not based on a body of knowledge. It is pretty much engrained in our culture.
Unfortunately, I fear we are losing the discipline that yes, was once ingrained in our culture. All the more reason to emphasize it in school. I blame teachers and parents alike for the decline.
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Being the first horse out of the gate is not enough to determine a winner. For example, Google was a late entry in the field of internet search engines, but has now dominated the field. The best, the final winner, is very often not the first, or the most timely.
Didn't say first horse out of the gate. I'm talking about the discipline and competence to meet deadlines. What happened to Boeing and the many other companies involved in building the Dreamliner, when they announced at least a 12 month delay in introduction? Not only did Boeing's stock plummet, but so did Rockwell/Collins, GE, and all the others. This was before the recent crash, mind you.
I think we can always find examples of where being first isn't always best. But again, when Junior graduates from school, and does a good job fixing a fender, but it's 5 days after the promised delivery date, his boss is going to have his head.
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If I were to hire somebody to teach me the theory of relativity, I'd be more concerned about whether or not I understood the concept, rather than how long it took to grasp the essentialls of the concept. My accountant might be more concerned about how many hours it cost to learn the subject, and the cost-value ratio of the exercise, but if I just want to learn the theory, and I am rich enough to pay for it, cost does not matter.
If cost wasn't an issue, I'd hire someone to learn the Theory of Relativity for me. Rarely does cost not matter, and again ACE, we can always find exceptions to every rule. Cost matters to Junior The Fender Hanger, his boss, and me.
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In our public schools, cost does matter. Still, the essential purpose of the schools is determined by how well, the schools teach arcane subjects such as relativity theory, or even common subjects such as readin', writin', and rithmetic. If the schools are inefficient in doing this, the fault lies with the schools, not the students.
Definitely agree with the last sentence. But I also expect our schools to teach more than the 3 R's.
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What is it that really matters? It matters that the students come out of their school years with a basic knowledgebase, and the ability to call on it to develop new knowledge. How timely they were in turning in assignments does not matter.
Well, what if their future places of employment require them to turn in work on time, regardless of its level of quality? They will quickly adjust to that.
Or not. It's the "or not" that worries me. I am seeing things from the younger members of our workforce that frighten me. And I have never, ever, said that timeliness was important, "regardless of level of quality". You keep manipulating my statements. I have continuously said that it not only must be on time, but it must also be good. That is what is expected from society these days, whether you're hanging fenders or building airliners.
Last edited by tycobb2522; 10-07-2008 at 01:04 PM..
Good Lord. And I wish that only meteorologists would talk about Texas weather on this forum, and only realtors would talk about where to live. What do you not understand about a forum being a place where people post their opinions?
If you have something to add to the discussion, other than snide remarks with no substance, I'm sure we'd all love to hear them. If not, you are still welcome to post, because this is a place for all people to post their opinions. However, I for one would prefer for you to shut up.
This particular thread is the most lively, and the most interesting, I have read in a long time.
Rather than people declaring that they are right and someoine else is wrong, I see a lot of reasoned discussion.
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I felt slightly guilty for my last abrasive reply following one of your little jabs; but not this time. Again, just because you were or are a teacher, doesn't make you any more special than anyone else on this board.
And we're going to continue to "spout off" as long as we wish...
Unfortunately, I fear we are losing the discipline that yes, was once ingrained in our culture. All the more reason to emphasize it in school. I blame teachers and parents alike for the decline.
Didn't say first horse out of the gate. I'm talking about the discipline and competence to meet deadlines. What happened to Boeing and the many other companies involved in building the Dreamliner, when they announced at least a 12 month delay in introduction? Not only did Boeing's stock plummet, but so did Rockwell/Collins, GE, and all the others. This was before the recent crash, mind you.
I think we can always find examples of where being first isn't always best. But again, when Junior graduates from school, and does a good job fixing a fender, but it's 5 days after the promised delivery date, his boss is going to have his head.
If cost wasn't an issue, I'd hire someone to learn the Theory of Relativity for me. Rarely does cost not matter, and again ACE, we can always find exceptions to every rule. Cost matters to Junior The Fender Hanger, his boss, and me.
Definitely agree with the last sentence. But I also expect our schools to teach more than the 3 R's.
Or not. It's the "or not" that worries me. I am seeing things from the younger members of our workforce that frighten me. And I have never, ever, said that timeliness was important, "regardless of level of quality". You keep manipulating my statements. I have continuously said that it not only must be on time, but it must also be good. That is what is expected from society these days, whether you're hanging fenders or building airliners.
Whatever our society demands as a level of acceptability, the schools and other institutions will reinforce that. Timeliness is not an academic subject, such as arithmetic or history, that the schools formally teach.
In the workaday world, different businesses will have different standards as to the relative importance of cost, timeliness and quality. No school can inculcate students in a common understanding of this relationship, since it varies from one workplace to another.
The issue of timeliness in schools is actually an administrative convenience, rather than part of the curriculum that the school delivers. If a school requires that students take an SAT test on Saturday, May 14, it suits the convenience of the school, raher than being a part of the product that the school imparts to the students. Which is OK. The school has to operate according to certain standards of order and efficiency. But let's not misunderstand the concepts between the convenience of the school, and knowledge gained by the students.
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