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You mentioned you'd be getting to work early, so your commute from the northern 'burbs wouldn't be bad in the AM. But if you are going back home during rush hour, your evening commute would be a BEAR! Unless you leave work at or before 3PM, I'd rule out anything too far north of George Bush (190) There are some great areas in Dallas that will cost you more - Lakewood, Lake Highlands are both good areas. The suburbs closer to Dallas in the north (Richardson, Plano, Garland) have some great neighborhoods with stable property values. I saw the WFAA report, and it's pretty bad news for sure. But I dont think a $1M plus neighborhood in Cedar Hill is necessarily indicative of what will happen in $200K neighborhoods in Frisco, McKinney, etc. And if 2-story homes with 15 foot ceilings are on your 'must have' list, you could be in for a commute.
Jay Robbins, Broker, Realtor
Last edited by Jay Robbins; 04-05-2007 at 04:45 PM..
To back up what Lakewooder said, I bought a new home in Allen (next to Plano) for $211K. 4.5 years later, my situation had changed, and I was going to sell my home to move into "Dallas proper". I sold my home for $205K. If you're looking for an investment, I don't think the suburbs are the way to go.
From my experience in living both in Dallas suburbs and inside I-635, I have some generalizations that I can make:
Northern 'Burbs:
They have more strip shopping centers. It's all, or mostly, new. If you like squeeky clean and don't mind driving (usually) longer distances to work, then the northern burbs are OK for you. Don't expect much in the way of older architecture and history. Also, as far as single family houses go, it seems like the neighborhoods are a little more private. By that I mean you see your neighbors pull into their garage and that's it. In 4.5 years, I talked with one of my neighbors about 10 times and the neighbor on the other side of me about 3 times. I have no clue who lived beyond that, even though atleast once a week, I was out mowing my lawn and tending to the yard. It seems like everyone hires our their lawn. I enjoyed my time in Allen. It was quiet and chain style shopping/restaurants are a plenty. Average home prices in Allen were in the $70-90/sq ft range. My home sold for $76/sq ft.
City of Dallas:
Now I live in "Dallas" proper. I live in Lake Highlands, which is South of I-635 and east of Central Expressway (aka TX-75). My new-to-me home was built in 1976. It's got cool raised panels in the living room - something you don't see in what I call "affordable" new homes. We paid $92/sq ft. Prices range from $85 - 110/sq ft. As you head closer to downtown, prices do go up. My particular neighborhood is very quiet and has something most "northern" suburbs don't - MATURE trees. I have two HUGE live oaks in my front yard and two HUGE red oaks in my back yard. Lots of wonderful shade.
I am a cyclist, so I love that I am about a 2 mile ride (on trails) to an area called White Rock Lake - which is a wonderful place to run/bike/walk or picnic and just enjoy the non-motorized small lake. It is about 9.5 miles to go all the way around. If you are an active person that likes to run/jog/bike/walk on something other than sidewalks in a subdivision - being near WRL will definitely make you consider Dallas proper.
Dallas has it's fair share of shopping. Dallas adds a little more local fare to these endeavours though - and lots of neat older buildings. It's different than all the newness of the northern suburbs. I enjoy Dallas more than I enjoyed Allen, but I did enjoy Allen also.
If you move to Dallas, there are several areas that offer different things. You heard about my Lake Highlands. It's one of the less expensive areas inside I635. Crime rates are relatively low and steadily trending down.
Lakewood (as you can guess Lakewooder lives) is another very cool area - White Rock Lake is actually smack dab in the middle of it. Lakewood offers all different architectural styles - even some modern homes. Prices are higher though. I believe prices are in the $150-170/sq ft range - but Lakewooder would better be able to expand on this.
Highland Park is an "old money" area on the West side of Central. VERY expensive (in my opinion) at somewhere in the $400/sq ft area. I certainly can't afford it. Million dollar homes are pretty much a starting point - as a lot can easily cost $600K.
Hopefully this info helps you some. I don't know what your preferences are, so I tried to explain from my experiences what I liked and/or disliked about each area.
You might also consider Mesquite - I lived there for many years while working very close to UTSW, and the drive - especially early a.m. - is very easy. In addition, you have more "escape routes" - alternatives to the major freeways - from that area than you do from the northern suburbs. The schools in Mesquite are excellent as well.
Look at older parts of Plano and other aging suburbs. They do not have classic
But the west side of Plano holds its value much better and homes typically stay on the market for days, not months (read the article in Big D this month to confirm).
I made this point earlier that Texas is a different animal and within one suburb there are probably 20 subsets of suburbs, all with their own demographic, builders and overall feel. When you shop here, you simply don't go out and buy in Plano, Frisco, Allen, Mckinney, etc.....you buy in the 'right parts' of Plano, Frisco, Allen, Mckinney, etc.
Also, to the person that said the northern suburbs never appreciate, I say your full of it. I have two friends in Frisco that have made over a 100k on their homes in less than 5 years. In Mckinney, just last year the appreciation was over 10%, which was one of the highest in DFW. And in Allen, I can't imagine - the two new areas in West Allen I looked at last summer (Montgomery Farms and Star Creek) are already up 30k for new builds.
Admittedly, if you buy new construction anywhere, you cannot sell until the area is built out - period. Someone mentioned days on the market, sure, older nice areas sell quickly that are closer in, but they are typically already beyond a certain point on the appreciation curve, so after Realtor costs, you could lose.
The part of Dallas that competed with Mckinney for the most appreciation honors was the park cities (of course, this is Dallas's premium Exurb - old money dominates here) and the north part of Oaklawn (thanks to gentrification, which is good to see in such a neglected city).
Also, to those that paint all of the Northern burbs with the new sterile track home brush, I just wanted to remind you that Mckinney has been around since the 1800s.
You Dallasite types scare me sometimes with just how far you bury your head in the sand and try to relive the past and ignore the fact that Dallas has alot of crime, ammenity and school related issues that make the suburbs (just 25 miles away which is not even a suburb in most cities, too close) attractive for young families.
Also, ask yourself why so many transplants migrate to these areas. I guess they all just don't know any better and aren't that smart right...bringing hundreds of thousands of dollars into the area to plop down on a house, but they are almost all ending up in the newer burbs....hmmm, that's odd.
"Also, ask yourself why so many transplants migrate to these areas. I guess they all just don't know any better and aren't that smart right...bringing hundreds of thousands of dollars into the area to plop down on a house, but they are almost all ending up in the newer burbs....hmmm, that's odd."
Actually this is not odd at all. Think about it. Where are most new homes being built? Within the city limits of Dallas? In more established suburbs like Richardson, Garland, Carrollton, Farmers Branch, etc? Plano is soon to fall into the ranks of this group. Or the new suburbs that have never been developed like Frisco, Allen, McKinney, etc? There are more homes for sale in the "new" suburbs than there are in the older ones because of the new construction. One can very well not go in and raze entire areas of housing just because it has reached a certain age. So there is no "shock" that most transplants are moving to the "new" suburbs. Also, the builders, developers, realtors are doing a great job of really pushing these areas. Why? Because that is where they have 100's of homes for sale in one neighborhood. Why not in the other burbs that are more established? Because there are not that many homes for sale. I can count on both hands in my entire area how many homes are for Sale.
But if you come from the coast, the thought of a new home is something you only dreamed of there, land is at a premium because everything is so developed. It's not realistic, even if you make 100-200k per year to buy a nice new home. New homes in Socal are in the 900s and up (and non-existent in parts of the northeast). So we need to apologize because that's attractive to us ?
Why is it so bad to want this....that's the point I have been trying to make all along. Also, most coasters don't see 17-20 mile commutes as death commutes the way natives do. I know people in Long Island that commute 2.5 hours each way to work ! Dallas to Frisco is a walk in the park for these guys. It's just a different perspective on the same exact thing.
Think about it....
I can buy a decent 1987 house built by a mid-range builder in central Plano for 300k (probably cost 200k).
Or I can go to Mckinney and buy a new 300k home with modern ammenities in an excellent upscale area.
Tradeoff, commute of course. But this is the age old story. Has been in this area for years. I'm sure people were saying the same thing about Plano and Richardson when they were 'the' places to be and were new and optimistic areas young people were moving.
Now the kids that grew up in Plano are looking north for the next new optimistic area to live and raise a family that reminds them of where they grew up in Carrolton/Plano/Richardson in the heydey.
Again, I just don't see why this makes alot of people here upset. If you like Dallas and livingnear the city, cool, do it.
If you like the burbs, live there.
Each has tradeoffs and the tradeoffs you choose are a reflection of the things you put the most value towards.
It doesn't make me angry or anything. I'm just saying that it is hard to say that one is WAY better than the other just because more people move into the "new" area in a years time than the older areas. The only reason being for this is because that is where the majority of the homes for sale are located. So that newcomer has a larger inventory to pick from vs a handful of homes in a more established area. A little over 5 years ago when we were looking at houses we only had a handful to pick from in the entire city we live in as we wanted to stay in the same school district. I'm not kidding on the MLS we would check every single day what had come up and once in awhile something new would hit but would typically be gone in a weeks time. Houses over $350K were flying off the market before the sign could get upright in the ground. Normally there was only 1 page on realtor.com of homes for sale (and that is for a city the size of Garland). From the time we started looking until we found our house in about a 6-8 month time frame we only looked at about 6 houses as that was all that fit our criteria and that even included a few small new developments. BTW, not everyone dreams of buying a brand new home.
Not way better because that is all relative, but more popular at the time based on statistics. People move north here into newer areas, always have right ? Nothing is wrong with that as long as there is land and patience to deal with the commute.
New semi-luxury homes are not everyone's dream, but it sure helps justify some of the sacrifices for someone who has relocated from an area he's lived/loved for 15 years.
Upgrading is nice. When I was looking at buying 'fixer-uppers' for the same price, it was depressing. The last 2 homes I've owned were fixer uppers. I'm not getting any younger, so why not experience building a new home. It's a great experience out here...seriously.
My new area was also built by the same developer that built my nieghborhood in San Diego, so there is some type of connection there that is comforting to my wife (men understanding that nesting is vital when buying a new home). There are about a dozen other reasons I bought where I did and while some were empirical in nature, others were instinctive and unique to me/us.
Again, I love west Plano where I live, but see that homes don't appreciate much here and the ones I can afford need alot of work. I also worry about the lifestyle and the expectations of living here, they are starting to rear their head now that I am settled in. I like the older areas out east where I work in Richardson, but I do see some of the worse parts of the city creeping up and taking over. The houses are actually alot older as well, so more restoration work, insurance and energy costs. I decided to pass.
As for further south into Dallas. Schools are bad with a few exceptions, where exceptions existed, the prices were nuts. More CA like. I didn't move to texas to buy another 600k home and pay 3x the property tax. Again, trade-offs. I also feel like an outsider the closer I get to Dallas. I just haven't warmed up enough to the city to be able to deal with that much of it at once. Then there is the proximity to crime. Grew up with crime, and will continue to move away from it whenever it knocks. That's something personal that I can't modify.
The burbs also feel more transitional and much more welcoming to outsiders.
You grew up here, so this would be hard for you to understand.
Socketz, I am a native texan and I do understand completly what you are saying. What you have described is what I experienced growing up in Houston. This is not just Californians feeling this way but many people who desire to live in a nice, new area where they can raise their kids at. Mckinney does have a huge influx of people from California and I told my husband the other day as we drove through La Cima in Stonebridge, exactly what you just conveyed in this thread about your wife being comforted by knowing the developer company.
DH has no clue what is really going on in Stonebridge because we don't live there and he really is commuter, knows not much about Mckinney because of his time being spent in the office. I had to tell him about the developer and that because many Californians are familiar with this company, they come and look in Stonebrige. If it wasn't for Stonebridge, Mckinney would not be what it is. It still would be the sleepy little town it was that I drove through back in the 80's.
I agree too with you that there is no wrong or right on where to live. People should live where they want and feel most comfortable at.
As for Lakeridge. I have not read any articles but know Cedar Hill well. I lived in Cedar Hill for years. The reason that community is in decline are because of the ISD's leadership and ratings. Also the concrete plants are just a few miles away in Midlothian and know from personal experience of lung issues how bad the pollutants are in the southwest sector. Those 2 factors do steer people from living that way. Also if you work north, no one wants to cross downtown all the time. Most of the white collar jobs are in the north sector of the city and outlying burbs and that is why so many who are transplants are moving north. We moved to Mckinney because we were told that my husband job would transfer to Plano one day. So we stayed north. We will see how everything pans out too. We will be moving soon but don't know where we will be moving, ( were selling our home). Were weighing our options and seeing what would be a good place to live and be not far from West Plano area and still not be farther away from his current job located off ofKnox Henderson.
But the west side of Plano holds its value much better and homes typically stay on the market for days, not months (read the article in Big D this month to confirm).
I made this point earlier that Texas is a different animal and within one suburb there are probably 20 subsets of suburbs, all with their own demographic, builders and overall feel. When you shop here, you simply don't go out and buy in Plano, Frisco, Allen, Mckinney, etc.....you buy in the 'right parts' of Plano, Frisco, Allen, Mckinney, etc.
Also, to the person that said the northern suburbs never appreciate, I say your full of it. I have two friends in Frisco that have made over a 100k on their homes in less than 5 years. In Mckinney, just last year the appreciation was over 10%, which was one of the highest in DFW. And in Allen, I can't imagine - the two new areas in West Allen I looked at last summer (Montgomery Farms and Star Creek) are already up 30k for new builds.
Admittedly, if you buy new construction anywhere, you cannot sell until the area is built out - period. Someone mentioned days on the market, sure, older nice areas sell quickly that are closer in, but they are typically already beyond a certain point on the appreciation curve, so after Realtor costs, you could lose.
The part of Dallas that competed with Mckinney for the most appreciation honors was the park cities (of course, this is Dallas's premium Exurb - old money dominates here) and the north part of Oaklawn (thanks to gentrification, which is good to see in such a neglected city).
Also, to those that paint all of the Northern burbs with the new sterile track home brush, I just wanted to remind you that Mckinney has been around since the 1800s.
You Dallasite types scare me sometimes with just how far you bury your head in the sand and try to relive the past and ignore the fact that Dallas has alot of crime, ammenity and school related issues that make the suburbs (just 25 miles away which is not even a suburb in most cities, too close) attractive for young families.
Also, ask yourself why so many transplants migrate to these areas. I guess they all just don't know any better and aren't that smart right...bringing hundreds of thousands of dollars into the area to plop down on a house, but they are almost all ending up in the newer burbs....hmmm, that's odd.
That is so true what you say about the commute! I was asked how far I'd be willing to drive, and as I still dont know the area very well yet I told this recruiter that 45 minutes is nothing...
it is perspective.
When living around the DC area, I worked in Vienna for a while and lived in Derwood (Rockville)
it was 19 miles or so door to door and took me 2 hours every night to get home.
I dont think I'll miss 270 or the beltway at all
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