French Drains (Dallas, Spring, Roma: new house, crawl space, to buy)

[venus_dallas]

We closed on our new house couple of months ago. With all this rain, we're seeing water accumulation in our crawlspace. Our home was built in 2006 on top of an existing (60 yr old) pier and beam foundation.

One foundation company we called gave us an estimate of $8900 to install french drain field along the crawlspace. All drain pipes would discharge into a catch basin which would be emptied by a sump pump.

My question is: is this a resonable estimate? Anybody have other recommendations on who we can call for a second opinion. Our home inspector who did the inspection before we bought the house specifically said that he didnt think we needed french drains and didnt see any drainage issues.

Help? We hadnt really budgeted for this and this is marring some of our joy with our new house :-)

[lakehighlands]

With the amount of rain that Dallas has had recently, some water accumulation on pier and beam houses is almost inevitable. Personally, I would give it a few weeks to see if it begins to dry up and then revisit the situation early next year.

As for that being a reasonable estimate; we would need to know the size of the house, number of drains, size/depth of catch basin, and sump pump to get a ballpark to work off of.

[venus_dallas]

The house is 3200 sq.ft 1, 1/2 storey - lower level would be about 2000 sq. ft. Here's what their work estimate says:
The drain lines will be located along the perimeters of the crawlspace with 2 drain lines running from front to back at the center of the crawlspace and one running from side to side at the center of the crawlspace. All drain lines will discharge to a catch basin located at the crawlspace opening at the front right area. The captured water will empty to the street. The catch basin will house a ½ horsepower sump pump with a high water alarm.

[Dallas native]

I had a French drain w/pump installed on the south side of my house last year. The overall length would be about 90' with some twists and turns. It cost me approx. $5,000 and I haven't had any water problems since. At that point I'd lived here for several years and realized that it was the only solution. Given that you just bought your house, I agree with LH that it might be worth waiting until next Spring comes and goes to see if the water penetration persists because this has been a very rainy year. If you do end up getting a French drain, just don't be surprised if the installation crew is NOT from France :-(

[nsumner]

You should determine if you need French drains after the rain stopped for a few days and if you still have standing water under the house at that time consider it.

Gutters would be the first thing to consider since they're much cheaper if you don't have them already.

Naima

[EarthFirst!]

Originally Posted by venus_dallas

The house is 3200 sq.ft 1, 1/2 storey - lower level would be about 2000 sq. ft. Here's what their work estimate says:
The drain lines will be located along the perimeters of the crawlspace with 2 drain lines running from front to back at the center of the crawlspace and one running from side to side at the center of the crawlspace.
All drain lines will discharge to a catch basin located at the crawlspace opening at the front right area.
The captured water will empty to the street.
The catch basin will house a ½ horsepower sump pump with a high water alarm.

venus_dallas,

Run away from this foundation company while you still have your wallet! Is that all the work estimate detailed -- just four sentences -- for $8,900 worth of work?? You can bet that your hard-earned dollars will go to buy and install the sorriest, cheapest, anemic, chinese-made sump pump that your money can purchase, but you will be charged top dollar for it. This is just the least of your worries with such a horrendously open (read vague) estimate as this. Not to mention the unknown incidentals that could be tacked on to complete the job.

I see an open-ended estimate coupled with no list of materials (other than the expensively cheap Chinese sump pump and high water alarm) and a job task indicative of two gets:

• Getting your money

• Getting the hell out of Dodge

I would bet that there are less than $1,000 dollars in materials for this job. The cheapest drain pipes and sump pump from either Lowe's or Home Depot. A $15 outdoor-rated (you hope!) extension cord to run the pump would be thrown into the shopping cart along with the sump pump. Then after final checkout and paying a whopping $600 for materials, this foundation expert will pick up four workers standing around out in front of the building and head directly over to your house. Then, Mr. foundation guru will pay these guys $10-$15 an hour each to go play in the mud under your house. Pedro and the Tres (three) Amigos will emerge very muddy about 3-5 hours later -- job completed. Then, the next sound you will hear is your doorbell ringing and the foundation wizard is standing on your front porch with an invoice in hand. Be sure and invite him into your home, for his feet certainly will not be muddy.

What type of French drain system would be installed for $8,900?:

• Open trenches and hope for the best? (You never know, for it’s out-of-sight, out-of-mind under your muddy, swampy house! Are you going to put on a SCUBA mask and snorkel and hang ten on a muddy wave to double check these crooks?)

• Open trench with just a gravel fill?

• How about properly dug trenching with the correct drain slope using perforated drain tubing covered with a geo-textile material and backfilled with aggregate rock?

Nobody but the illegal, greencard-less, muddy diggers under your house will know!! And the foundation expert!

Does this company have an engineer on staff? Not the choo-choo engineer, either. I mean an in-house Professional Engineer. A PE that is registered in good standing with the state of Texas. Was there any mention of an engineer’s report on why and/or how the water is getting under your house in the first place?

Call at least two, maybe three, foundation companies with a full time engineer on staff and have them come by and take a look at your problem. Allow plenty of time between appointments if you schedule more than one company to come by your house in a single day.

The idea is to not let the foundation companies see each other at the same time at your house. That sets a bad taste in their mouths that you are possibly pitting one against the other in a bidding war. If you are guilty of doing this and select one of the “wronged“ tradesmen to fix your swampy crawl space, they can inflict a a hidden, built-in charge on the final invoice called the PITA charge. Yes, that’s the “Pain In The Ass” charge. The price drop to get your signature on the contract over the other guy is coming out your pocket, regardless. Nothing illegal. Maybe immoral. Slightly naughty. Be aware.

This PITA charge goes for other repair trades as well (plumbers, electricians, HVAC, etc.). The possibility of you being secretly overcharged for your transgression really does exist.

Any company, regardless their particular discipline (HVAC, plumbing, etc.), should not be surprised at you, the homeowner, getting several estimates. Just don’t go overboard.

Rain water is probably the culprit, but with a brand new home, a leaky water pipe could be a cause. Who knows? It all needs to be scoped out thoroughly!

Maybe just a few wheelbarrow loads of a clay soil in just the “right spot” outside your house next to the foundation perimeter would divert the water from getting under your house in the first place. I don’t know. The soil around a new-build home gets trampled, dug, shuffled, mutilated and piled-up. Possibly, this freshly moved soil could be diverting rain-water runoff under the old foundation of your new house.

Do you have gutters? If so, are the downspouts dumping copious amounts of water right at the foundation, or is the water channelled away from the foundation? If you don’t have gutters, it would be best to get them. And channel the water far away from the foundation.

Was there any evidence of crawl space flooding BEFORE you built your new house atop the 60-year old pier-and-beam foundation? Inquiring minds want to know.

EDIT: Did your home inspector actually crawl around under the house in his inspection looking for past evidence of ponded water?
EDIT: Although I originally thought that the house was only several months old, upon rereading the OP's first post on this thread, I see the house was built in 2006. Has there been any soil disturbance around the house perimeter? Yard regrading? Flower beds? Any heavy metal edging or landscape timbers been installed next to the house foundation?

Add this new adjective to your vocabulary:
Main Entry: hack
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1734
1 : working for hire especially with mediocre professional standards <a hack journalist>

Keep your money in your pocket and don’t settle for unprofessional hack foundation repairers that will separate you from your money in exchange for substandard workmanship. You might have to pay for an estimate. After all, you want someone that knows what they are doing. Besides, gasoline isn’t free. The small estimate charge will usually be rolled into the job cost if you go with that particular foundation expert.

venus_dallas, you have come this far with your new-build home. Please don’t cheapen out now with the water ingression in your crawl space. You will be extremely sorry if you let this go and follow the hack repair route. Then you will have to pay for it TWICE to get the job done right. Just pay once and get it done correctly. You’ll thank me for it in the long run.

Maybe a Professional Engineer (PE) would actually design a solution to your water problem for the same $8,900. If so, at least you would know that you’re getting the most for your dollar. It might be an overkill to get rid of the water, but it would work better than the alternative. Then again, maybe it’s just a $350 job to move some soil away from the foundation. Or it's a leaky water pipe. Who knows. Contact the right personnel to evaluate a proper (hackLESS) solution.

Good luck,

EarthFirst!

[BigDGeek]

There is also the issue of permits; some cities require permits for French drains. Did the word "permit" appear in their estimate?

[venus_dallas]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. We'll wait for a few days to see if the water drains off on its own.

As suggested, I would like to get an independent engineer (not associated with a foundation company) out for inspection but have no clue who/what/where to find one. Any recommendations?

[FarNorthDallas]

OMG, Earthfirst, that was hilarious.

[EarthFirst!]

Thank you!