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Turtlecreek, would love to have our kids grow up around people like you any day of the week... just need to figure out how many of you there truly are in the HP/UP area!
Frogandtoad, I hear you. We might just need to agree to disagree on this point. We too are in a pretty wealthy area today. But its newer/younger wealth. And I am talking, $750k-$1mm/year annual household income wealthy... doctors, lawyers, professionals that have exceeded in their field. Not, $20mm cash is sitting in the bank from family wills, estates, inheritance, etc. I perceive much, but certainly not all, of Highland Park to be that kind of money +++ (UP a bit less so, but still very wealthy). Many of the top private schools in Dallas (and certainly the parochial schools) have a fair amount of racial and economic diversity - at least according to their websites, available information on minority %, scholarships, etc. If you look at HPISD, its like 1%. I think that all and all, a private school experience will be more diverse in general than the HPISD. Again, all this is my speculation based on the best info I have... not first hand. I could be wrong...have been many times before!
I'll leave you with this thought, Lynn- there are plenty of BOTH types in the Park Cities. If you want to compete with the fur coat crowd and raise bratty kids, you'll be in good company. But if you want to build a life around faith & family, are well-educated and work hard for your money and strive to pass those traits onto your kids, you'll be in good company, too.
I think one of the biggest lessons you can learn in the Park Cities is to not judge a book by it's cover. One of Angie Barrett's (Google her- she's on the cover of this month's Paper City) daughters was in my sister's grade. The daughter literally wore Prada coats and $350 shoes every day (back in the good ole days when Manolos were $350, not $600!). My mom still tells stories about what a genuinely good and involved parent Angie was. How she would volunteer to take on any project, do cafeteria duty with the rest of the moms (btw, do you know that the HPISD budget is so tight that mothers and dads volunteer staff the cafeteria lines in all 7 schools?), etc. Here is a woman that is in the society pages every week, serving pizza and mac-n-cheese just like any other HPISD mom. Here is this mom who opened up her home for countless PTA meetings, study groups, cheerleading pracitces, etc. So yes, she's a Richie-rich, but at the heart, she's first and foremost a mother.
Turtlecreek, would love to have our kids grow up around people like you any day of the week... just need to figure out how many of you there truly are in the HP/UP area!
Frogandtoad, I hear you. We might just need to agree to disagree on this point. We too are in a pretty wealthy area today. But its newer/younger wealth. And I am talking, $750k-$1mm/year annual household income wealthy... doctors, lawyers, professionals that have exceeded in their field. Not, $20mm cash is sitting in the bank from family wills, estates, inheritance, etc. I perceive much, but certainly not all, of Highland Park to be that kind of money +++ (UP a bit less so, but still very wealthy). Many of the top private schools in Dallas (and certainly the parochial schools) have a fair amount of racial and economic diversity - at least according to their websites, available information on minority %, scholarships, etc. If you look at HPISD, its like 1%. I think that all and all, a private school experience will be more diverse in general than the HPISD. Again, all this is my speculation based on the best info I have... not first hand. I could be wrong...have been many times before!
And I have not even been there yet, so I'm going only on what I'm reading! Will be interesting to check everything out first-hand.
btw. I do agree w/you, at least w/Catholic schools. Most catholic schools I've known of have had reasonably good, sometimes very good, racial and economic diversity. I have not looked into any catholic schools though...not my cup of tea. But I can see your point if you're referring to that.
This has been an interesting thread to read on several levels, not the least of which is from the perspective as an educator with 2 Master's degrees (from fairly elite schools - Georgetown University and Boston College) who now teaches in one of the private schools mentioned, and as a parent of 3 kids who really wants the "best" education for my kids, but also to keep them grounded and around "normal" kids, as we are a very middle class (socioeconomic) family.
I would like to chime in on something that I saw mentioned a few times, and that is the different "levels" of education you receive based on what private school you attend. As an educator who taught one year in a Texas public high school and many years at an excellent public school in Rhode Island (90% of graduates went on to 4 year colleges, top SAT scores in the state, many went to Ivies), it saddens me to see so many dismiss Parish Episcopal as so "subpar" compared to other more established private schools. I am new to Dallas, so I do understand that they don't have the longstanding reputation that St. Mark's, Hockaday, et al have...but I can tell you as an insider with (I think) very high standards and a personal understanding of what it takes to flourish in an Ivy League-type of school...the academics and environment at Parish are fantastic. There is just no comparison to the level of rigor and critical thinking I see at Parish compared to the Texas public school I taught at last year.
I have no experience at the other "lesser" private schools mentioned and cannot comment on those, and I also understand that as a new upper school, Parish does not have the statistics and longstanding tradition that the others do. But I would not hesitate to send my 3 kids through Parish, with the thought that they be prepared to flourish in an Ivy League university if that's where they end up wanting to go/being able to handle.
This is very true. Many people forget that for most of the 1950s and 1960s, Greenhill was the new school, and you only sent your kids there if you were far too liberal for St. Mark's and Hockaday, if you were Jewish (and thus were rejected by St. Mark's and Hockaday) and didn't want to send them to Hillcrest for some reason, or if they didn't get in to St. Mark's and Hockaday. It definitely had the reputation of not being as good of a school. By the 1970s and 1980s, Greenhill was considered to be of the academic caliber of St. Mark's and Hockaday with a slightly more liberal bent, and ESD had become the school where you sent your kids if they didn't get into SM/Hockaday/Greenhill (it also opened when DISD integrated as the private school market flooded--I don't think ESD ever excluded black kids like the segregation academies in the Deep South but there wouldn't have been a market for it before integration).
Parish is just suffering through that same phase as the new kid on the block. It will be interesting to see if they make the leap to the elite academic level as they get older and more established--Greenhill made the leap without issue, but ESD is still really where the kids who didn't get into St. Mark's and Hockaday go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnsl
Turtlecreek, not surprised to hear your story...based on getting to know you virtually online. Question is -- are you the norm or the exception??
We are from Austin/San Antonio area to those who were asking...
If you're familiar with the Alamo Heights area in San Antonio, it's basically a clone of Highland Park with just a LITTLE less money. In Austin, the closest thing would be the Tarrytown area, but Tarrytown has more of an old liberal bent and sends its kids to the well-integrated racially and socioeconomically O. Henry Middle and Austin High, rather than secluded schools in their own district.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogandtoad
Well, first keep in mind I have not even seen the area yet!! But my reasoning is like this...
In UP/HP, you're surrounded by the wealthy (for the most part). Old wealth (for the most part). I am very comfortable w/old wealth (and realize I'll probably get a ton of posts saying there's no difference between old and new, but anyway). I've lived around it most of my life, and find it to be very comfortable, people not snobby or flashy (in general). They may have more than me (and in this case many many of them would), but that wouldn't bother me. I've also lived in places where I have a lot more than those around me. I don't care and I'd hang out w/people who don't care. Self-selecting process. Since we don't show our wealth and don't give our kids all the "things" many of the other kids have anyway, they probably wouldn't even notice where they stood. Many many kids of all wealth levels have the wii and have ipods and cell phones. Not mine. And they won't any time soon. So they're used to not getting what the others have, and it's always been like that, so it woulnd't be anything new to them
If living somewhere like Southlake and doing private, which you mentioned, and which we have considered, I don't think you would get any more economic diversity all. Most of the kids friends would come from school, and who goes to the top privates? Again, mostly wealthy. Very wealthy. So they're still surrounded by it. But now you're in a $700K house in Southlake vs. a $1M in UP/HP. Is that economic diversity? Not to me. Southlake sounds very pretty, but still very wealthy, with greater chance (seems to me) of flashy wealth b/c people there like the huge houses with media rooms, 180 car garages, etc. (which I don't). Kessler Park, etc. seems much less flashy but still very wealthy. Not a lot of economic diversity.
To get economic diversity, I am thinking of two ways. One, live in Lakewood and attend public schools (IB in middle in high school. The middle IB should start in 2 years, IB in HS is already in place). Or
live downtown where there is "real" economic diversity and do private. I don't want to live downtown though. Lakewood is an option.
So I feel like I'd be paying to get what I can already get for free. OK, not free, but it's less expensive over time than all the years of private. We do private now, as I mentioned, and I do like it. But we live where it is very diverse economically, so I feel like it makes sense. There, I'd be living in a place which really isn't economically diverse anyway (Southlake, W.Plano, Kessler Park, etc) and then they'd be in school w/mostly wealthy (many extremely wealthy) anyway. Lakewood seems to be the one exception to all this.
Religion isn't something I particularly want in the school (although I don't mind it either), so that's a neutral for me. Maybe a slight negative to have it in the school but not overwhelming either way.
The bolded part is incredibly true here. One thing though, we DO know the difference between old and new--it's usually blatantly obvious (though the new may be loathe to admit it--if you look at any threads about West Plano on city-data in the past, you will see the reactions). However, there are also many old money/old name families that just don't have any money anymore, have one or even two working parents, and aren't any different from most normal middle or upper middle class families except for their social connections, and even in the HP area there are transplanted families who jump right in and get involved with the school and church and social clubs and fit in well, though it may take a long time before that Dallas Country Club invitation hits.
We want the best academic environment for our boys...we define that as highly motivated students, teachers, low ratios, small classes. We are Catholic, so a Christian influence would be nice, but not mandatory. We are not willing to live somewhere without any economic diversity whatsoever. If our $1MM house in UP/HP is the cheapest on the block, that is just not where we want to spend the next 20 years. We have all but eliminated living there, even though it seems clear that they have the best public school district in Dallas. While we really liked the Southlake area (arguably the 2nd "best" school district), it felt very large -- large schools, large classes, large houses, etc. I think it is roughly the same size as the HPISD, but it felt bigger. That, combined with a need for my husband to be downtown a lot, has led us to think about private schools and North Dallas neighborhoods.
Very interested to hear your perspectives...because we definitely havent figured this out completely yet.
Southlake's high school grades have about 500 more students than Highland Park, but place them into two schools (9-10 and 11-12) so each individual school will seem smaller. The size factor is definitely a lot bigger--the modern McMansion trend is much more apparent than in UP and HP, where steps to prevent it have taken place, and where there were plenty of large, fancy older houses.
Carroll ISD is an excellent district but like Highland Park, it's a bubble--your kids aren't gonig to be out there and experiencing the world, and it's just going to be like HP socioeconomically--almost everyone will be well off, and while there is a larger Asian and Indian presence in Southlake, it's not very big--the school is heavily Caucasian. You will get this same experience in western Plano as well.
The suggestion of JJ Pearce is a good one--the neighborhood is more middle class than HP/UP or even Preston Hollow, but it's very nice and very safe, and you'd be able to get a much nicer/larger house for your money. Pearce serves far North Dallas and western Richardson. The school is excellent and far more socioeconomically diverse than any private school or HP, and is very competitive in extracurriculars. The feeder schools are all excellent as well. Another Richardson ISD school you might want to look at is Lake Highlands. It's almost entirely in Dallas--the far east area north of White Rock Lake. It's another excellent school, a little more diverse than Pearce due to a number of apartment complexes in the area, though the houses in the area are more upscale than around Pearce. It's also bigger--5A level, I think right around 3000 students. Either would be a good choice.
The Lakewood area in East Dallas also would be excellent--upscale and nice homes but real diversity very close. The neighborhood as by-and-large stayed loyal to the public schools, in particular Lakewood Elementary, which is simply outstanding. JL Long Middle School and Woodrow Wilson High school are larger and far, far more diverse than anything you've been looking at, and have had their struggles, but are improving recently. They're in transition to the IB program at all grade levels and I think it will be a smashing success. If not, St. John's Episcopal School is an excellent option in the area, and St. Thomas Aquinas is not so bad either. Many kids from the area go to North Dallas private schools, particularly in high school, but Bishop Lynch High School and the Lakehill School are in the region and aren't terrible choices either.
Southlake's high school grades have about 500 more students than Highland Park, but place them into two schools (9-10 and 11-12) so each individual school will seem smaller. The size factor is definitely a lot bigger--the modern McMansion trend is much more apparent than in UP and HP, where steps to prevent it have taken place, and where there were plenty of large, fancy older houses.
Carroll ISD is an excellent district but like Highland Park, it's a bubble--your kids aren't gonig to be out there and experiencing the world, and it's just going to be like HP socioeconomically--almost everyone will be well off, and while there is a larger Asian and Indian presence in Southlake, it's not very big--the school is heavily Caucasian. You will get this same experience in western Plano as well.
When we did our tour of Southlake/Carroll, we did it with a work colleague of my husband. They have lived there for a long time. He commented that many people from Dallas dont even understand the city boundaries for Southlake/Carroll. They associate it with the Timmarron Golf Club neighborhood (built in 90s) or the McMansions that are popping up on large estates/property. Did you know that a fair amount of Grapevine and Keller are in the Carroll district? Also, there are MANY older neighborhoods and houses in Southlake. I am no expert and dont have the numbers, but just from driving around Southlake and Park Cities, I cant believe your comments about "bubble" are as true in Southlake. As mentioned here, it used to be a farming/rural area and many of the older houses are very modest. No offense to the Park Cities crowds, but also, the McMansions look a lot better when they are sitting on 2-3 acres of land. I dont mind that in Southlake. With a minimum requirement of .5 acres for new construction and most newer big houses on 1 acre+, the McMansions look much more in place, if you ask me. As I said earlier, we really liked it out there. If we were insistent on Public Schools and/or husband didnt mind the terrible downtown commute (especially once the work begins on the 114/121 exchange), we might pull the trigger out there.
Lynnsl,
I'm just curious where you're looking with the diversity you want, which is till commutable to downtown? Are you looking right downtown itself? Lakewood (which I love and is still very much an option for us!)? Are there other places which provide this diversity?
Lynnsl,
I'm just curious where you're looking with the diversity you want, which is till commutable to downtown? Are you looking right downtown itself? Lakewood (which I love and is still very much an option for us!)? Are there other places which provide this diversity?
Totally jumping in here, but I am genuinely wondering why so many posters come on here seeking diversity AND the best education for their children. Lynn is certainly not the first to ask these questions.
I know that in other cities it is different, but in Dallas you are going to have to choose one over the other? Best education? Or surrounding your kids with a rainbow of nationalities and incomes? You simply can't have both. And I think it's a shame that we live in such a PC world that a parent with the financial resources would choose diversify over education.
The BEST publics are HPISD and Southlake Carroll ISD. HP currently registers 0 students on free lunch; Southlake-Carroll HS has 6- but that's still 0%.
I think you are kidding yourself if you think that Southlake has more diversity than HP. Is an Indian family where the father has a Computer Science degree from Stanford or an MBA from Harvard, who is aculturated, going to add diversity to your child's life, other than being a nice brown man? Seriously. I know that sounds racist, but I don't mean it that way. Just pointing out that well-educated families who have money have a lot more in common, even if the skin color is different.
As for the privates, the "best" academically are Hockaday, St Mark's, Greenhill, and Cistercian. The only one with significant economic diversity is Cistercian, and going private while seeking the "best" education AND diversity is putting a lot of eggs in the Cistercian basket. Yes, the other schools do give a lot of scholarship money, but realize that many (most) scholarships go to families who make $80-150k per year- a good salary, but not good enough to comfortably afford spending 25-50% of gross salary on tuition. They're NOT poor kids; they're just not as rich as you are. Very, very few (maybe 1-2 per class) are truly economically disadvantaged. The cold, hard truth is that it's a long, uphill battle for someone who comes from a very poor neighborhood and poor early education to cut it academically at a St Mark's. Few have the sheer will and parental support necessary for academic success atthe elite level.
The best thing you can do is to send your kids to the BEST school you can afford, regardless of diversity. Then, instill a spirit of volunteerism and giving back to the Dallas community in your kids. Help them find some way to consistently volunteer and help those who have less. That will teach them the best lessons of life- that to whom much is given, much is expected. HPHS's motto is "enter to learn, go forth to serve."
That will teach your kids to respect ALL people- regardless of color or economic circumstances. Since Lynn is religious, I'll assume you tithe to your parish and probably give financially to other organizations. Have your kids sit with you when they are old enough to understand the family budget. My parents certainly didn't tell us everything about the family finances, but would often explain as we were watching some tragic thing on the family news- "Dad just wrote a check for $1,000 to the Red Cross to help the Hurricane Andrew victims. We don't live close enough to go help them, but this money is something they need more than we do.". I would sometimes go to work with my dad downtown on school breaks. I'll never forget when he saw a homeless man, shook the man's hand and called him by name, and off we walked with this man to McDonald's. We all three got breakfast, sat and ate together. My dad prayed for the man and asked the Lord to protect and bless his man. Later learned that dad had been taking this man to breakfast a few times a month for like a year. Knew his whole life story. Now that taught me a lesson about respecting people no matter their circumstances (every man is a man and deserves to be treated as such), not to be scared of black people (admittedly, I was 6 or 7, and didn't know many/any), and to always help someone in need.
There is so much more you can do for your kids than send them to a diverse school so you can feel good & check the diversity box. I would much rather see my kids learn in an environment where they are NOT in classes with kids who can barely read in high school and slow the whole class down. I'd rather them not be in a school where kids are in gangs or where a significant amount of kids have homes that I would not want my kids going to after school to play (rough neighborhoods, absent parents, etc). Just things to think about. As good as JJPearce, Hillcrest, Woodrow Wilson are with the hand they've been dealt, there are still a lot of issues in those schools.
Turtlecreek,
I think your assumptions on WHY people look for diversity are not accurate. And I have not heard anyone say they would choose diversity over education, but if both were possible, I personally would opt for that. Not, however, for the reasons you suggest.
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