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Old 01-22-2013, 01:44 PM
 
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
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^ Because it's absolutely effortless. You can pull out allegiance and fealty to Dayton's history as a way to position yourself more highly morally. Politicians love to kick budget deficits down the road and they also love free feel good.

 
Old 01-22-2013, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati
4,471 posts, read 6,177,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohioan58 View Post
^ Because it's absolutely effortless. You can pull out allegiance and fealty to Dayton's history as a way to position yourself more highly morally. Politicians love to kick budget deficits down the road and they also love free feel good.
FWIW - I am not leveraging my criticisms at any posters here. I actually like the history that has been brought up on the forums. I am speaking more specifically at how leaders seem to always fall back on Dayton's great heritage...or whatever. Then they usually follow with how great Tech Town is in the next breath.
 
Old 01-22-2013, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Covington, KY
1,898 posts, read 2,735,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post
FWIW - I am not leveraging my criticisms at any posters here. I actually like the history that has been brought up on the forums. I am speaking more specifically at how leaders seem to always fall back on Dayton's great heritage...or whatever. Then they usually follow with how great Tech Town is in the next breath.
Actually, it's more than techy stuff. The Native American site (Indian Village) has already been somehow linked to the stuff downstate, like (I think) Serpant Mound and (again, I think) Cahokia in Illinois, which is already on the world heritage list. I'm also under the impression there is a another "dig" somewhere close to Vandalia.

Cahokia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Old 01-22-2013, 02:43 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,244 posts, read 7,137,138 times
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I should comment here on Carpathian Peasants' UNESCO reference.

This is due to the Wright Brothers sites being nominated to the UNESCO World Heritage List. This list could be either natural landmarks, or have siginfigance to human history.

Here is the US tentative list (nominated but not accepted yet). You'll see Dayton is on it

US UNESCO Tentative List
 
Old 01-22-2013, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarpathianPeasant View Post
Actually, it's more than techy stuff.
I could have been more clear. They point to Tech Town as proof positive progress is being made and everything is all right. I'm not maligning Dayton's history, just pointing out how it's used as a dog and pony show, meanwhile the city's problems only get worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
This is due to the Wright Brothers sites being nominated to the UNESCO World Heritage List.
Gotcha.
 
Old 01-22-2013, 03:00 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,244 posts, read 7,137,138 times
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Quote:
I am speaking more specifically at how leaders seem to always fall back on Dayton's great heritage...or whatever. Then they usually follow with how great Tech Town is in the next breath
The spiel is on this community having a history of "innovation" (as in things being invented).

Which is perhaps a usable past.

But the missing piece is that innovation require enterpeneurship to be brought to market, and to have an economic impact. Dayton did have that, too, and for things both innovative and for generic stuff. A very active enterepenurial culture that entered and then left lines of business and manufacturing...they made different things at different times, but they always made stuff here...

The issue now is about transitioning again into a new economic era, leaving the era of mass employment/manufacturing behind (which sort of distorted the local economy...and expectations... due to the huge manfacturing operations of NCR and GM/Delco as well as a host of other larger employers like Dayton Tire).

The painfull part is that if it wasn't for GMs, NCRs, etc. demand for a big unskilled and semi-skilled workforce in the 20th century this town wouldnt be as large as it is. We would have been maybe more Fort Wayne's size?

So we have a lot of redundant and poorly educated people (tight job market and a lot of unemployment) and redundant housing (more supply than demand, and a lot of vacancy at the bottom of the market) as a "legacy" of of that old economy.

So, sure, we will see the return of economic growth as the community finds its place in this new world, but it will be different kind of work and different type of economy than in the past.
 
Old 01-22-2013, 03:13 PM
 
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
1,086 posts, read 2,688,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomJones123 View Post
FWIW - I am not leveraging my criticisms at any posters here. I actually like the history that has been brought up on the forums. I am speaking more specifically at how leaders seem to always fall back on Dayton's great heritage...or whatever. Then they usually follow with how great Tech Town is in the next breath.
ABSOLUTELY. I got your point, and that was my criticism, too. It's like an SNL skit: Dayton politician gets up in front of an open mike, says "John Patterson... Charles Kettering...powered flight... cash register..." and there's thunderous applause every time he pauses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
The painfull part is that if it wasn't for GMs, NCRs, etc. demand for a big unskilled and semi-skilled workforce in the 20th century this town wouldnt be as large as it is. We would have been maybe more Fort Wayne's size?
I *love* the alternative history angle.

Fort Wayne??? Nah! More like the size of Chillicothe or Wilmington, seriously. Well, maybe whatever size that Dayton was in, say, 1880 it would have topped out at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
So we have a lot of redundant and poorly educated people (tight job market and a lot of unemployment) and redundant housing (more supply than demand, and a lot of vacancy at the bottom of the market) as a "legacy" of of that old economy.
It's almost like the old idea of the bulked up weight lifter who goes to pot. All of that muscle turns to fat.

In Dayton's case, the pool of skilled and semiskilled workers metastasized into an underclass.

So having lots of people around who are used to being well employed is risky. You have to keep them employed continuously or there will be "problems".
 
Old 01-22-2013, 03:18 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,244 posts, read 7,137,138 times
Reputation: 3014
^
...exactley.
 
Old 01-22-2013, 07:33 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,244 posts, read 7,137,138 times
Reputation: 3014
Quote:
*love* the alternative history angle.

Fort Wayne??? Nah! More like the size of Chillicothe or Wilmington, seriously. Well, maybe whatever size that Dayton was in, say, 1880 it would have topped out at
Yeah, I sort of played this game at another forum around a discussion re Detroit, that if not for the auto industry, following 19th century growth trends, Detroit would be in the Milwaukee/Buffalo size range.

So I figure Dayton, without GM & NCR and the military would be a smaller city, but maybe a more economically diverse one, since the economy wouldnt have been dominated by two or three huge employers or one or two industries.

Historically, in the 19th century, Dayton did have one big employer, the car works, prior to NCR, but it also had a bunch of smaller industrial operations...
 
Old 01-22-2013, 08:28 PM
 
Location: A voice of truth, shouted down by fools.
1,086 posts, read 2,688,245 times
Reputation: 937
I thought about it more. I think you're right - Dayton probably would be Fort Waynish in size without NCR, GM, and the base in play in the early 20th century. Dayton had value as a Miami and Erie canal stopover and later as a transportation hub. I think the transportation hub factor would have made Dayton larger than Middletown or Springfield. Dayton would definitely not have contracted to a Chillicothe scale.

Dayton would have grown anyway, maybe not as dramatically as it did for a few decades from 1900 to 1950 - without the big three employers it would have conformed to a more average growth rate typical of a mid sized Ohio city, but with a boost from canal and then railroad traffic.

Just guessing.
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